[POLL] Microjumps are good for the game. Dont remove B2

[dreammyw0w]

It is obvious from everything he has posted Hylis' opinion is the only one that matters. "He knows how to make a competitive game" Well, currently there are 65 players in Shootmania worldwide. Yesterday at peak time for euro's there were 445. That doesn't sound like a successful game to me at all. When will you realize that you are pushing the few people that actually play your game away from it? Sure, with ESWC coming up, teams will come back and play but as soon as ESWC is over, the players that came back for it will be gone again. When you push competitive players out of your game, you kill any chances of it being a success especially when it has been marketed as an e-sports title. Competitive play is where your game gets seen and will bring in new players. players that you already have because you feel that you know better than the community that actually plays this game. Also, you said earlier that defrag/obstacle players complained about the walljumping so you fixed it. So, what you are
Every major change Nadeo has made has been protested by the competitive community and the result has been fewer and fewer players even logging into the game. Sure, walljumping was a great addition to the game and completely changed the dynamic but now that is completely nerfed. Keep running this ship into the ground and lose the few telling us is that you will listen to the people that just jump around the map doing tricks and ignore the entire community that is telling you that they liked it the way it was and that the new way is bad?
Hylis and Nadeo make me sad because I and many others truly enjoyed playing this game and they keep making it more and more casual friendly. Guess what? Competitions are what bring people to games, Elite was marketed as a competitive title and keeps getting worse for competitors. If the game hasn't taken off at this point, why keep running the people that are actually playing off?
My team will come back for ESWC but once it's over we and many others will be gone again. This game that had so much potential is dying because a couple of the higher ups think they know better than the community that is telling them they are wrong. You obviously don't know how to make a successful e-sports title, so listen to the people that are actually playing.

The truth is strong in this one.

[bas_ekkelenkamp]

For anyone who hasn't catched this post yet, it's worth a read.

Back to your post luxizz, i'm going to answer only on the beta 3 and microjump part, i'll leave the mapping part to the mappers. Those responses are also merging in it my personal opinions as i play Elite quite often.

About the micro-jump, you said it yourself, it was not intended to have such a tiny-micro-small-unrealistic-cheated jump. What makes it a problem now is that you had acces to that "bug" for a while and now you're frustated to lose it. I think we can agree that if it was always like it is today, we would not probably be talking about it as an issue.
May I remember you people like Talespin or Strenx that said in the first place that the micro jump invention was really bad because it was "too random", "taking out the risk/reward of jumping for sprinting", etc.
Then people complained about macro-users and asked for this minimal jump height.
And now new people complain about having a minimal jump height, of course.

I now it's frustrating to give up advantages that you had, but they were made on incoherences. You still have an advantage, it's just less overpowered. Yes you are the one talking about laser 1/3 reload on hit being to overpowered for the attacker, but what about the people that love hitting 3 guy in a short window of time, and have the skill of doing it ? 1/2 was apparently overpowered, so it went for 1/3 of the reload. Micro jump was overpowered now it's getting nerfed.

So now you have the explication about micro-jump, it's not a new one, overpowered for the people who can use it at it's best, and preventing macro-users.

The only reason we can go on arguing about it would be because you think "bugged" micro jump is not overpowered, right ?
I can understand that it's not a difference of power between an attacker and a defender, but between two players of different level or experience and that can be justified on some situations. But then imagine if in counter-strike they would now allow speedhack on servers and in competitions. BUT, only 1 000 players would be allowed to use it. You would have to have this hability/feature to start playing with other people, without it you just got raped by any player that learned how to use a speedhack.

This extreme caricature, is trying to makes you realise that it's not fun to get rape if you can't afford to spend 1month training for a ridiculous bugged technique. The argument that "pros are pros because they can do what other people can't do, so please leave this synthetic hability to be sure we stay pros" which i often read is like hearing a rich guy say "Rich people are rich because they have money, the poor people should stay poor, if they are richer we won't be rich anymore !".
So yes it reduces a gap between really good players and really really good players, but they will always be better if they are really the best at what they do. It's not game mechanics that makes you lose a game, and that's because they are the same for everybody.

See it on the long term, less and less people are playing quake because if they try to, they just got raped by people playing it for years and years non stop. It's not fun to get raped or humiliated, games are made to be fun, shootmania is a game, let other people have fun with you in shootmania.

What i would add to this, because i haven't seen any body raising this point, is that nerfing the micro-jump just grows much bigger the importance of the map and the mappers. It was even clearer when we only had normal jump. But when you can't microjump automatically to escape real quick, you can't still use little asperity and verticality of some blocks to use your stamina real quick without jumping. It makes the game more strategic, less mechanic and more micro-intelligent.
I think what's fun to do, and makes a good player good, is finding your way around difficulties, and micro-jump when mastered is just the opposite of difficulty. If you can escape every-time you make a mistake or you are in danger, the game is EASY.

[plopp]

I'm sorry if I sound like an a-hole, but why did you release the game?

If you weren't happy with the way core mechanics worked, why didn't you stay in beta and then release it with the best settings? Imo it doesn't make any sense to change core mechanics after you've released the game. Especially when the community doesn't agree. People have paid for one thing and gets another thing. Will you give people their money back?

[Alexey85]

I'm sorry if I sound like an a-hole, but why did you release the game?

If you weren't happy with the way core mechanics worked, why didn't you stay in beta and then release it with the best settings? Imo it doesn't make any sense to change core mechanics after you've released the game. Especially when the community doesn't agree. People have paid for one thing and gets another thing. Will you give people their money back?

Many games have changes after release, SC2 for example had tons and tons of changes across all three years since the release.

[novationx]

I'm sorry if I sound like an a-hole, but why did you release the game?

If you weren't happy with the way core mechanics worked, why didn't you stay in beta and then release it with the best settings? Imo it doesn't make any sense to change core mechanics after you've released the game. Especially when the community doesn't agree. People have paid for one thing and gets another thing. Will you give people their money back?

I agree. Dont think Im a A-hole either.
Drastic changes should be done in a beta. I also always felt the game wasnt ready when it came out.
You should focus on other things in orde to make this game work :

new surroundings, better teampages, better menu's & chat

[andrewcandoall]

I'm sorry if I sound like an a-hole, but why did you release the game?

If you weren't happy with the way core mechanics worked, why didn't you stay in beta and then release it with the best settings? Imo it doesn't make any sense to change core mechanics after you've released the game. Especially when the community doesn't agree. People have paid for one thing and gets another thing. Will you give people their money back?

Many games have changes after release, SC2 for example had tons and tons of changes across all three years since the release.

I agree with Alexey

[plopp]

Many games have changes after release, SC2 for example had tons and tons of changes across all three years since the release.

I don't know what changes you are talking about since I don't play sc2. But if they changed lots of core mechanics (basically all the movement) I don't agree with the changes in sc2 either.

It's like you pay for an ice cream with chocolate topping, but you get one with liquorice topping. And when you ask them why, they respond with "We don't like chocolate topping, and some people like liquorice so we figured you will have to live with it". Therefore they shouldn't have had chocolate on the menu from the beginning

[Alexey85]

Many games have changes after release, SC2 for example had tons and tons of changes across all three years since the release.

I don't know what changes you are talking about since I don't play sc2. But if they changed lots of core mechanics (basically all the movement) I don't agree with the changes in sc2 either.

It's like you pay for an ice cream with chocolate topping, but you get one with liquorice topping. And when you ask them why, they respond with "We don't like chocolate topping, and some people like liquorice so we figured you will have to live with it". Therefore they shouldn't have had chocolate on the menu from the beginning

OK, lets put it this way: before buying the game, you have to accept a license agreement, which, I almost sure, stated that the game might have changes. You never been promised that the product has fixed set of features. So you're are welcome to express your opinion, but you have no ground speaking about "money back" and "this is not what I paid for", since you were paying for a changing product from the start.

[plopp]

I knew that I was in for lots of changes since I bought the game in beta. And you might be right about the license agreement and 'no money back'. I just think their "finished" product should have been a bit more finished. The average gamer would expect a few tweaks and bug fixes here and there after the game is released, not total reworks. But indeed, it's not my game or anyone others than Nadeos. They can do whatever they want with their game. But it would be nice if the people that actually play their game would get a vote.

On another note, cerovan wrote in another thread:

I think it's a mistake to modify the gameplay to please only a part of the community and to not care the other part.

Isn't this basically what they're doing?



Hylis uses obstacle as an example:

Kryw is saying random moves, like obstacle players. You seem to deny it, but I know the code behind, know what is the problem, and it was raised by obstacle players (that knows more about moves than Elite ones, I think)

I understand the point here, but obstacle and elite are very different in what you want to accomplish with your movement.



And cerovan also wrote in this thread:

it's not logical to have two different character behaviours in the same game (i mean in a Maniaplanet game). That's why B2 need to be removed.

I agree that it's not logical to have different character behaviors. But is it logical to change to a setting that only part of the community wants?

I think you can make b3 even better before forcing people to switch.

[Cerovan]

The Obstacle players showed us that the walljump was bugged and that's why it has been fixed (and the Elite players knows that the walljump is bugged but they prefer this comportement because it's not trickier to do because of these bugs)

The walljump behaviour is now stable/consistant and that's the most important thing to remember.