My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Discuss everything related to Shootmania.

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novationx
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by novationx »

Hey dudes calm down :D

People are overexaggerating. Nadeo doesnt respond like this at all... I névér read here on the forums 'fuck off' coming from a nadeo employee... Where is all this hate coming from?

@ OP :
You are totally right and I think these fixes would really help the game in many ways!
I couldnt find anything that i dont agree with so good job! Lets hope nadeo actually reads this post and listens. Im sure they will.
In case u didnt know: There is an update coming soon and I think it might address some of your suggestions.
Scheduled release < 15/2
UrinStein wrote: PS: Well done OP. Most of it wouldn't be on my priorities list, but I can totally understand every single point in it.
Yours are rather "new player problems", I guess.
I dont think hes a newer player because it seems to me he knows alot about the game. I also consider this priorities. Some suggestions might not be considered a priority cuz they are just basic ( = should have been in the game a long time like copy/paste f.e. )

Gimme update plx :(
The neverending waiting game has to stop.
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UrinStein
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by UrinStein »

novationx wrote:I dont think hes a newer player because it seems to me he knows alot about the game. I also consider this priorities. Some suggestions might not be considered a priority cuz they are just basic ( = should have been in the game a long time like copy/paste f.e. )
I don't mean to say he's totally new, but obviously he came to MP from some other shooters/games.

I just think that someone having played Trackmania before and Shootmania since closed Beta has kind of has got used to that kind of stuff and rather wonders why
1. the editor looks exactly like the one from TM Nations ESWC and wasn't improved upon too much
2. the haven't been any possibilities to make some good scripts for Trackmania (not that could do that, but there are some people)
3. there is an upper limit for stamina (you can't make gamemodes with insane stamina, though you can make them with insane ammo)
... and some other things.

"New player problems" would be things that I consider important to get people to play the game in the first place.
"Advanced player problems" (don't nail me down on that word) would be things that are important to make content of better quality, quantity and diversity.

Some things, like Title Pack stystem, you'll find in both those categories, but to be honest, after 1,5 years of Shootmania I don't even give a shit about the fucking news and social stuff. It's nothing that will make the game a whole lot more enjoyable or interesting once I'm in the editor or on a server.
I don't like the idea of achievements or unlockable because I don't want to fill a list, I want to explore and exploit. Create my own motivation to play the game, if you will.

But I very well know, that I may sooner or later play all by myself, so it sure is a good idea to think about that stuff kiaragovaert and countless people before him have mentioned.


MP 3.0 actually promises to improve in both of those categories (that I have just made up), so I'm looking forward to it as well.
kadaz wrote:> That's where I disagree, cause the truth is, the truth is, weather you agree to disagree or not with liking it.
> I know I speak intelligent English
znik
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by znik »

I can understand the tone and point of view by TS. The reason to why people sound exaggerating or a little bit given might be because the topics discussed here all seem quite obvious for a development and PR team in a game company to integrate in order to boost the popularity and success of the game, without having the community to point out the obvious. For all we know, this might be a working process from NADEO as we speak, but they should have informed more about it then so.

I also question my self many of the same topics related to TrackMania and it's E-sport scene. TrackMania has been around for quite a while now, especially in competitions and offline events as the most popular racing title. I will just copy paste what I suggested over at ESL (feedback after CPS12 groupstage)

http://www.esl.eu/eu/tm2_stadium/news/234670/
I think the developement team in NADEO can take a lot of inspiration from other E-sport titles. Like already mentioned the match-making system for example. Even though TrackMania is a heavily community driven game, I think one of the main problems for E-sport is the fact that everything is scattered around into pieces that the player himself have to solve. With that I mean all the external pages for tournaments, news, skins, tracks, tutorials etc. in order to utilize 100% of the game. A better designed menu system gathering live information would be a key solution for this.

If I remember correctly, NADEO also said they were working on an integrated ranking and tournament system in the game? This would take care of all the external registration for the different tournaments as well promoting it directly to everyone in the menus. Community driven, yes, but in a way it will be easily accessible for everyone in one place. This would definitely exploit a lot more of the potential player base trackmania can have in the competition scene. I take it that the recent move to steam community hub is an attempt to achieve this, but the questions are: Will it just be another mediocre source? Would a built in menu system be more effective for this?

Another big source coming from the community are the two popular server systems XASECO and FAST as well as Dedimania. In fact I think these community driven projects are so big and important for TrackMania that without them the success of the game would be substantially lower. What I preferably would like to see is an official game mode from NADEO optimized for E-sport and competition. E.g. it is so much potential in extracting statistics from matches or tournaments and present them in graphs or other presentation methods. This would be very helpful for casters and players in order to analyse the games.

It would also be very interesting to have a statement from NADEO about the slidemarks in spectator mode.
I have been playing DOTA 2 for a while now and I see so many ideas that maniaplanet could benefit from. Especially a database used for player-profiles, official matches, official team and player rankings as well as tutorials for new beginners in order to integrate them to the competition scene.
Read my new beginners guide to competitive trackmania over at Steam Community
Hylis
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by Hylis »

thanks to say that you absolutely love this game

after, I think you still need to see how time has an influence on all of this.

Friend system
There is not many games that have their own friend system. Shootmania is one of them, and a pretty new one. So, it takes us time to make it mature. But it also take us time because it's more ambitious than many. It's made for the game, with the future ability to handle scripts and manialink to communicate, enabling much more advance real time messaging and notification than most of current system I know. So, yes there are big flaws at the moment, but that's a forced step before having the good stuff. And many are included in next update.

Usuability
It has been said that an evolution of the home is along the way. With Forever, it was quite solid in it's first version. It got news, forums, and later advertising etc. Making a 2.0 version, thinking compatible with much more titles and custom ones, along side making it more agile for evolutions (Nadeo Live instead of Nadeo) took us time that were inbetween other projects that are ongoing. As the system of "most popular", it's a double edged sword, especially for smaller audience acticities. However, it's goind to be released in next version, in order to help a lot for the start. After, I am not sure it will be wise to keep it without efficient category, or else, way to sort the "most popular" But for a start, it's really good, and now that the Title technology is starting to be more solid, it's a good timing.

Intuitivity
It's typically what comes after features. As an example, you take the replay database. It's a first step to then provide easier access to it. It's already quite efficient to be able to download it, but it lacks information. In addition, I feel that there is too many. So, in next version you will be informed that you can tag the round you like as you play (F9 key) and suggested to download them after. F10 will remain for screenshot, meaning that you will have F9:VideoShoot, F10: ScreenShot. And thanks to the notification or help system, we will be able to improve the information tips about all of this.

Planets
You suggest LP boost, but I am not sure the majority would agree. I think there are many things that will arise with the bigger introduction of user created content. I have some idea to make them more valuable and interesting. But first of all, we needed a solid economical system that avoid inflation for keeping prices meaningfull, especially to avoid everybody to re-evaluate their creation prices later. I would love to fix minimal prices for many things, and provide demo tools, in order to accelerate the economy, but we lack some tools to make it at the moment. At least, it's there and many things can be done by the players with Planets. Later, I expect to see more and more tournaments, contracts, creations, services, donnations, advertising and else used by planets. I think we can put under critics that it's not enough developped, but I also think it's a good thing to have it up and running, at least.

Ingame scoreboard
They are always improved, and getting better. At the moment, they are quite good in my opinion. Voice FX and else is another topic. I agree the game can have more action feelings thank to this type of artefact. We are starting some tests in that regard. With the "playsound" function in script, we expect players to be able to more easily make this type of feeling and explore the path of diversity with it. Whatever we do, I believe the players can make more when it's about diversity, style, feeling and evolutions. We think Shootmania as 2.0, so we can not provide sounds for all the modes that the players would like to do. So, it's more to be thinked "doable" by players, even if it would be cool if we would do some cool samples, of course.

Different map-types
Thanks to mods, items, visual fx (a new track of fog is in the next version) and more customisable moods (in next version) you will be able to have more diverse feelings without the need to have a complete environment. Thanks to mixmapping and future blocks, you will also have more diversity in map building.

Replayability
You are suggesting what other are making big critics. You say that you should win LP whatever you do (lose or win) The mathematics enable such system, but it seems difficult to explain to many people that winning 10 LP does not make you move forward fast enough to make the difference in the rankink. It's an open debate that I invite you to have with players more than us, and provide conclusions on it if you wish. glhf ;)

Relaunch
Shootmania will be improved and more easy to communicate, also for the many reaons you give before. So, it's logicial for us to first concentrate on the quality, until we find that players not only love the game, like you, but also believe that the quality are in a much greater number than the unachieved parts. You can then make the critics that Shootmania should be already perfect, but please keep in mind that BF, CoD, CS, Quake and TF are all 10+ years since first release, while Shootmania is less than a year old. So, I think it's ok to say that it's a lot about time.

You should express more that it's maybe about time in your post and also consider the fact that the game is still there (no audience drop since last update) and with the dev behind, even if the new update is taking a lot of time (6+ months) But that's quite big to see a nearly full year of update after release, in most games, even if successful multiplayer games are mostly based on constant updates over time. And we know it since a long time, and don't intend to change of formula. More importantly, we provide the players to increase the interest by themselves.

So, I believe we see the same things, but that you prefer to make it more like if we are dumb. If that's the case, I don't know who you would be able to love one of our game. So, I think it's more that we are just not as fast as you would love, even if I believe you are fast, or we would not be catching up in interest on other games from the most popular genre over the last 20 years, with the biggest studios behind.

You wish Shootmania to be a world champion, and I thank you fort this, and your post. It takes time to become. We are junior on FPS, and gaming system (compared to battle.net & steam) but even if it looks messy in many areas, the plan are solid and are there, to bring 2.0 in a good way.

If I took time to write, it also mean that I took a lot of time to read, for good reasons. Don't think we are blind, we are just humans that require time to do stuff.

I saw that you talk about an answer that would be about time and the potential lost customer. But I knew some of the most active user ever in counter strike that first disliked it very much at start, even some world leaders & managers. That's the same with LoL. Once they come back, they know it's for good, much more than the others ^_^

And thank you again, for taking time to make the list. It's always good for me to read this type of stuff.

Peace, as you say.
novationx
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by novationx »

Hey Hylis,

Thank you for the reply! You leaked some new information and it makes me feel good to know about the things that I can expect. Im trying to imagine now how the game will look haha :D
I'm happy you replied and it seems to me that you fixed some issues that are in this thread; so good job :thumbsup:

About the LP:
Hylis, you have to admit that having 0LP every map looks bad? I spoke with you before about motivation. Without the LP, you have no motivation in this game. ( = maybe 1 motivation = training; you need to train to be better, but is that enough?) I also posted a screenshot where I got 1200LP because I beat some noobs. The LP distribution is not perfect. Also why is it only on the MM-servers? Is it to attract more players to MM? I respect that, but I think the distribution of LP + '0LP' should be improved somehow.


Scoreboard:
Scoreboards have always improved with every update and if you add new stuff to the scoreboard then you need to redesign it. I understand.

Personality:
Do modders actually have the possibilty to change sound-fx? I also would like some cool sound-fx and maybe some cooler feedback. Its good that modders can do this, but if we are talking about the basic feel/look of the game, then I think NADEO should do it. This way Elite will look better for EVERYONE at the same time. I , personally, want ELITE to be the same everywhere, but with better visual & audio feedback. Make it cooler somehow.


Anyways :) happy new year :yes:
The neverending waiting game has to stop.
kiaragovaert
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by kiaragovaert »

Maybe I made things look easy to improve, but I know that is not always the case.
I made this post to give my vision of the game and to share the things I personally struggle with in this game.
Struggling = never positive, so you should not expect a positive post.

Of course because my post wasnt positive , you shouldn't think that Im not happy with NADEO. As I stated 2x before, I absolutely love this game. My one and only purpose with this thread is to reach the developers so they take notice of my personal problems and maybe find a solution for it in future updates.
I never said that I was impatient nor did I call anyone dumb ( Hylis? I never said this. )

I am happy you replied and after reading your reply it looks to me that their will be lots of fixes. That's great news! :)


I disagree with your statement about "junior FPS". I know Shootmania is 1 year old and its your first FPS game. I absolutely love the result, but deep inside, if I am honest, the game feels unfinished to me.

In my head it would make more sens to release a game when its finished and when you ( the developers ) are happy with the game. Until then just keep it beta and get money from pre-orders.

There is no point in discussing this. The game is already published. I cant just help but think that lots of more players would have stayed if you released/published the game with MP3.0.
viperozza
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by viperozza »

Where is sadzealot when we need him? :roflol:
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rzn
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by rzn »

Now answer mine :)

GAMEPLAY related:

- Sounds, I know you're testing it.
- Achievements?
- Unlocking skins and player models and different shields with planets or something
- More minimalistic HUD and easier. Scoreboard aswell
My YouTube

Video editor at COREPLAY.Tt
novationx
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by novationx »

rzn wrote:Now answer mine :)

GAMEPLAY related:

- Sounds, I know you're testing it.
- Achievements?
- Unlocking skins and player models and different shields with planets or something
- More minimalistic HUD and easier. Scoreboard aswell
Didnt I read in his reply that they are going to make planets more useful and valuable? So Hylis said they are working on it. Also scoreboards improve every update and he is happy about it now. So maybe we can expect a tiny change but nothing spectacular.

Btw I have a source that said the update will be released 15/1. Ofc, I dont know if it will be true.
The neverending waiting game has to stop.
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djhubertus
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Re: My opinion about the game and some suggestions

Post by djhubertus »

Do modders actually have the possibilty to change sound-fx? I also would like some cool sound-fx and maybe some cooler feedback
SMART Servercontroller has sounds like Doublekill etc.

Of course it's possible to include custom sounds with manialink <audio> but it's far from perfect :)
My Gamemodes:
MP4 - Countdown, Firefight
MP3 - Reduction, Overload, Flashpoint, Territory, SM Race, Escape
MP2 - Search & Destroy, Oscillation, Instagib
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