Gaming vs. realism, or should weapons hit through fences?

[TMarc]

To me, whats worse is the kind of post that TMarc likes to make. He likes to make all sorts of strange assumptions about gameplay and the community, defending SM and MP to the hilt. This is the guy who tried to say that rockets and rails going through fences should not be seen as a game-breaking bug, but rather a very rare possibility that rails/projectiles could pass through very tiny holes in a chain link fence.... yeah maybe in real life but not in a game where the fence is there to provide cover..

Thanks for picking this up, and for reminding that you need some more explanation, because I think you have not understood anything about what I tried to argue there.

To want to use a relatively weak fence as "effective" protection against weapons is frankly spoken just totally unplausible and absolutely unrealistic, for a game that tries to combine very nice visual realism with a futuristic environment.

So let me try again from a engineer's point of view

If a fence is hit by a rocket, and you are standing behind the fence, what will happen?
Both the fence and you will be damaged at this place. Normally there should be a decent hole in the fence and in the ground at that place, and you should be desintegrated, or pushed away, e.g. to the next wall.
After all we're not talking of a small "New Year's Ever rocket" that has only some glitzering light effects, but of a powerful weapon with relatively massive destructive forces!
And even if you have a decent metal shield or force field as protection, it would be seriously affected.
I never wrote that the rocket should pass through a hole in the fence, because it is obvious that this cannot happen if the fence holes are smaller than the rocket.
But the blast, the explosions energy can certainly pass.

And a fence is only partially a barrier for light, usually more than half transparent by the surface, so why should a laser not be able to pass?
If you can see an oppenent moving behind a fence, the laser which is also light, must simply pass, by pure matter of physics.
And if the laser beam is larger then the width of the fence material, it will certainly pass anywhere on the fence, hitting an opponent behind it, and not have a random effect there (if it passes through or not).
Only a very small laser would likely not always pass the fence, but the trilaser gives the impression of a larger and powerful beam.

Of course it is very difficult to modelize, it depends on the fence material and grid size, but that's where Nadeo has to decide if they make the fences protect or pass through.
And as long as there is no clear reasoning from the creators (Nadeo) for the rockets and laser physics, and their interaction with the different objects we have in the game, we can think about it, ask for improvements of the game on this topic, and debate, without anger.

Now if you still don't understand or believe it, ask your physics teacher, or the MythBuster to try that in reality...
To scientifically investigate the effect of explosions and lasers through fences could be very interesting and surprising experiments

[caspa]

Yeah but once again you miss the point. This is a game, not real life. You were trying to justify the inclusion of this bug by relating it to real world physics. That is my point. I am not trying to dispute the laws of physics.

For all intents and purposes, in shootmania fences act as a form of cover which allow you to keep an eye on things at the same time. Edit: Let me put this another way - imagine the fences are pillars but you can see through them. That is basically what their function is. Try to argue that the laser can pass through a solid wall please.

Once again, you are making the assumption that there should be a possibility for this to happen. When all we are talking about is a game-breaking bug. With the general point being that we want the gameplay to be as bug-free as we can possibly get it.

You're right about me knowing nothing about physics. But does that matter? I'm talking about a computer game. If we wanna talk about physics, why is this game so floaty? Thats not what gravity is like IRL. Fall damage please Hylis!

I don't know why I even bother to write this stuff..

[TMarc]

I'm not against good gameplay, but it should be somehow realistic. Or Nadeo should have made a fancy comic style texturing only.
I like science fiction alot, but even there they try to make science look as much realistic as possible, unless it is only a persiflage. And I don't think ShootMania is a comedy of a FPS.

What is so wrong with a partial cover (which a fence is obviously), that also can make you get hit partially?
You take the risk to see what's happening on the map, and the risk is exactly 1) to be discovered by others and 2) to get hit, although more difficultly as on the free ground.
This would be fair, don't you think?
And if you want full cover, you can still hide behind a wall, and hope that Nadeo doesn't implement destroyable walls soon...

Yeah, fall damage is another good point, probably its on the todolist but with low priority

[caspa]

Seriously? Whats realistic about shooting lasers and rockets out of your arm? Whats realistic about your corpse disappearing into thin air the moment that you die? The very term sci-fi has the word fiction in it - (taken from wikipedia): Fiction is the form of any work that deals, in part or in whole, with information or events that are not real, but rather, imaginary and theoretical—that is, invented by the author.

^ I have highlighted the key words here for you.

And yes, there is nothing wrong with partial cover which carries the risk of getting shot through from. But when has that ever been the case in shootmania? Unless Hylis can tell me otherwise, the function of the fence is to provide solid cover while being able to see through it. And that means others can also see YOU through it - that is the trade off.

The main point that I'm trying to get through to you here is, maps have been built around fences serving that intended function. You can argue all you want how in reality it might act otherwise, but from a pure gameplay view, being able to be shot through it is a bug. This is the reason why I had a big problem with your original post. Also, yes you didn't mention rockets passing through fences - but it still happened. Is that a bug, or just another consequence of "reality". I would like to know your explaination for it.

And then you say stuff like fall damage is low priority... implementing fall damage would most likely require a re-design of the whole game and its functions, as falling from a high distance and using your stamina is probably the most simple way of picking up speed. This isn't a personal attack on you, but this is merely me expressing my concerns as I believe the way that you try and reason with people is bad. You are the global moderator, people who don't know any better would probably take your statements as truth.. further serving to create confusion

Sorry to hijack this thread SSM guys.

[The_Big_Boo]

If a fence is hit by a rocket, and you are standing behind the fence, what will happen?
Both the fence and you will be damaged at this place. Normally there should be a decent hole in the fence and in the ground at that place, and you should be desintegrated, or pushed away, e.g. to the next wall.

Rockets in SM aren't doing real damages, the same way you're not killed but eliminated. Moreover, they're made of pure energy, not some kind of explosives like you're implying here. So I don't think anyone know what would actually happen in this situation.

And a fence is only partially a barrier for light, usually more than half transparent by the surface, so why should a laser not be able to pass?
If you can see an oppenent moving behind a fence, the laser which is also light, must simply pass, by pure matter of physics.
And if the laser beam is larger then the width of the fence material, it will certainly pass anywhere on the fence, hitting an opponent behind it, and not have a random effect there (if it passes through or not).

If you want to talk about light, then you're forgetting diffraction and interferences that will occur with such a fence (you can't consider this fence the same way as a half transparent surface) thus you probably won't be hit by the full beam.
Also, it's called laser but looks like a lightning. And if it's a lightning, then the fence will act as a Faraday shield thus you won't be hit at all.

[TMarc]

And yes, there is nothing wrong with partial cover which carries the risk of getting shot through from. But when has that ever been the case in shootmania?

For the same reason: why should it not be the case?
You see, we can have arguments for and against, and on some we even agree.
Nothing bad about it.
I don't want to impose my view point, but I would like to have clarity, especially
under which circumstances a rocket or laser hit on a fence can affect the player behind it.

Unless Hylis can tell me otherwise, the function of the fence is to provide solid cover while being able to see through it. And that means others can also see YOU through it - that is the trade off.

Agreed.

The main point that I'm trying to get through to you here is, maps have been built around fences serving that intended function. You can argue all you want how in reality it might act otherwise, but from a pure gameplay view, being able to be shot through it is a bug. This is the reason why I had a big problem with your original post.

Don't you make the gameply too easy then?
Is having players visible through fences, but not reachable for any weapons, sufficient as tradeoff?
If this is the main agreement and also the intended purpose from Nadeo, I'm fine with that,
and if weapons still manage to pass through... most probably a bug, if the player (hitbox) is noticeably lower than the fence is.

Also, yes you didn't mention rockets passing through fences - but it still happened. What is your real-life explanation for that?

There can be many:
Very strong rockets breaching through the fence.
Some random weakness of the fence, like weak solderings, or unpure material.
Or perhaps it only looks like the rocket passed, but in reality it was only the blast of a rocket that hit the fence at its top.
Or, the opponent stayed too close the fence, and the blast of the explosion either passed through the fence, or the explosion blast bended the fence and this hit the player sufficiently to damage or even push him.

Sorry to hijack this thread SSM guys.

Also from my side, sorry.
But I can move out the recent posts between caspa and me to another thread (of course only if you agree, caspa!)

Rockets in SM aren't doing real damages, the same way you're not killed but eliminated.

I guess you're joking here. If they don't cause damage and don't contribute to elimination (+1, +2), why is this such a problem then, and why are they there at all? Are they only there for pure showcase? "Wow, SM also has rockets because every FPS needs rockets!"?

Moreover, they're made of pure energy, not some kind of explosives like you're implying here. So I don't think anyone know what would actually happen in this situation.

Then it's about time that their behavior and their effect is explained properly and one for good.

If you want to talk about light, then you're forgetting diffraction and interferences that will occur with such a fence (you can't consider this fence the same way as a half transparent surface) thus you probably won't be hit by the full beam.

I did not forget it at all, but isn't that asking for too much realism suddenly?
Laser has a very small wavelength compared to the grid size of the typical fences that are placed in SM.
If players can see each other without difficulties, laser should pass it as well without being altered, causing clear hits then, but that is contrary to caspas interpretation

Of course I know that some grids exists where the light can even be reflected. It depends on the wavelenght of the light if it can pass, gets scattered, distorted, bended, or reflected. There are even some grids that can absorb the light completely. But that's certainly not the type of fence that was originally conceived for the game, right?

Also, it's called laser but looks like a lightning. And if it's a lightning, then the fence will act as a Faraday shield thus you won't be hit at all.

It's "just" another form of energy then. A concentrated beam of lightning?
Someone at Nadeo must have read Yoko Tsuno: Le feu de Wotan
Then the Faraday effect might apply indeed, but since it is a very powerful weapon, also here the effect on the direct surrounding (e.g. a player touching the fence) might be unclear...

At the end you could tell that every weapon in SM is only a different manifestation of energy...

[caspa]

To be honest I'd rather this thread was renamed: Issues that Nadeo has to tackle. And this particular issue would fall under poor forum moderation.

I used the fence thing as an example of you defending every criticism that comes their way. My point was really not about the gaming vs realism subjects that you brought up. Just a fact that you were trying to defend a game-breaking bug. Now that the posts are taken out of the other thread its probably gonna be quite confusing for people to read this without context.

[novationx]

this thread is rediculous. Caspa im following you bro
Tmarc doesnt seem to get it.

[caspa]

Reposting this on TMarcs request to make things a little clearer in this thread:

For the same reason: why should it not be the case?
You see, we can have arguments for and against, and on some we even agree.
Nothing bad about it.
I don't want to impose my view point, but I would like to have clarity, especially
under which circumstances a rocket or laser hit on a fence can affect the player behind it.

Yes, of course we can debate it and it is a refreshing to see such a notion suggested on these forums. (While as players we debate with each other, when the other side is the Nadeo team I've rarely ever seen a true debate.) What the real big problem was, is that as players we expect the game and all of its aspects to function consistently. Rockets going through the fence was not an example of that - and that is the real reason why it was a problem (and this is the reason why lasers passing through a fence should not be the case). At first it was hard to re-create, but it discovered that if the point of impact was on the players knee (or thereabouts), then generally the bug would occur. As far as I know, this was fixed - I haven't seen it happen in a very very long time. Which leads me to believe that rails/rockets were never intended to pass through a fence

Don't you make the gameply too easy then?
Is having players visible through fences, but not reachable for any weapons, sufficient as tradeoff?
If this is the main agreement and also the intended purpose from Nadeo, I'm fine with that,
and if weapons still manage to pass through... most probably a bug, if the player (hitbox) is noticeably lower than the fence is.

Yes the game is too "easy" - I'd prefer to say "simple" at the risk of being targeted as some sort of elitist. (And anyway, regarding the game being easy -thats a whole different topic)
There is more to it than just being a simple tradeoff. Fences are primarily utilised by defenders (I'm speaking strictly about Elite), as an attacker cannot sit at a fence the entire round and win the round (as they must eliminate everyone or cap the pole). My point is that, by being an attacker you already have the advantage of having a singlehit-kill weapon. This is why I actually feel that fences are somewhat balanced - they are far more useful for a defender than an attacker. When you sit behind a fence as a defender you know that you can't be hit while the attacker is on the other side - that is something that you trust in, and is consistent. When a rail passes through randomly, that consistency is lost.

I did not forget it at all, but isn't that asking for too much realism suddenly?
Laser has a very small wavelength compared to the grid size of the typical fences that are placed in SM.
If players can see each other without difficulties, laser should pass it as well without being altered, causing clear hits then, but that is contrary to caspas interpretation

With this response I feel you've opened up another part of the conversation. Judging by your previous posts you want the game to still remain somewhat grounded in reality - but when we get into deeper aspects of it its too much? Where do you draw the line on realism? Talking about rails passing through fences counts to me as "too much realism". Isn't Nadeo's ethos about keeping things simple? I feel like this whole discussion regarding the intricacies of laser/lightning is irrelevant.

But, lets entertain that idea: the laser is extremely thin and if it can fit through the gaps, then shouldn't it be happening all the time? If it really was the case then I'd imagine it would happen quite a lot.
I'm also wondering why you didn't refer to the first paragraph of my previous post.

[TMarc]

To be honest I'd rather this thread was renamed: Issues that Nadeo has to tackle. And this particular issue would fall under poor forum moderation.

I used the fence thing as an example of you defending every criticism that comes their way. My point was really not about the gaming vs realism subjects that you brought up. Just a fact that you were trying to defend a game-breaking bug. Now that the posts are taken out of the other thread its probably gonna be quite confusing for people to read this without context.

Now you're kidding me, I start not to like this at all.
I can move everything back to the original thread...