Gaming vs. realism, or should weapons hit through fences?

[caspa]

I was under the impression that our posts fell out of the topic of the last thread, which was why you wanted to move them? Not to continue the discussion about whether a rail should pass through a fence, but rather to air all the concerns that I have.

Theres no need to delete the thread, we can leave it as it is for now and I'll start a new one?

[TMarc]

I was under the impression that our posts fell out of the topic of the last thread, which was why you wanted to move them?

yes, that's right.

Not to continue the discussion about whether a rail should pass through a fence, but rather to air all the concerns that I have.
Theres no need to delete the thread, we can leave it as it is for now and I'll start a new one?

Ah, ok. There are many places where you can place your points, you can even do continue it here.
If you prefer to have the thread title renamed I'll do it. After all you're discussing with me, it is not a monolog of either of us.
But of course you're free to start a totally new thread, even a "competence of the moderators" if you think it needs to be discussed.

I'm also wondering why you didn't refer to the first paragraph of my previous post.

Sorry, do you mean this one?

Seriously? Whats realistic about shooting lasers and rockets out of your arm? Whats realistic about your corpse disappearing into thin air the moment that you die? The very term sci-fi has the word fiction in it - (taken from wikipedia): Fiction is the form of any work that deals, in part or in whole, with information or events that are not real, but rather, imaginary and theoretical—that is, invented by the author.

Actually I fully agree to what you wrote. It is the same with TrackMania btw. Although with a relatively realistic look, some tracks are crazy, no one could drive on most of them in reality, crashing the car that much that one is not able to recognize what it was before, but still being able to drive straight and at full speed, as if it was new and undamaged. Only as examples, the respawn, the boosters, the huge loopings, this is all fiction.

Also with SM we have the opportunity (and at the same time the problem) that the players can discuss and help to somehow develop the game. Everyone sees things totally differently, especially things which are not real, but fantastic - in terms of fiction.
The intended level of realism could be defined (I'm not writing "should"), unless the creators (whoever it is, Nadeo or other genious users) leave it up to the users' own fantasy.
But if there is no definition, no description of the "physics" of e.g. a weapon, and if there is mostly random effect, it is not reproducible, and then perhaps not suitable for tournaments with serious ambitions and cash prize.
Just remember the discussion around walljump. At the time they were new, not many people managed to use them.
Those who were able to walljump were soon treated as cheaters, and then people started claiming to make the walljumps more easy.
Then Nadeo did it, and since walljumps are more easy, they are not such an advantage anymore.
Or players who were able to climb the trees, etc.
I'm not sure if there is the intention to have too much random effects, as surprises for both attackers and defenders.
But the many discussions gave me the impression that especially the pro gamers want clear defined and reproducible behavior. yes, exactly, you spoke of it as consistency issue.

Yes, of course we can debate it and it is a refreshing to see such a notion suggested on these forums. (While as players we debate with each other, when the other side is the Nadeo team I've rarely ever seen a true debate.) What the real big problem was, is that as players we expect the game and all of its aspects to function consistently. Rockets going through the fence was not an example of that - and that is the real reason why it was a problem (and this is the reason why lasers passing through a fence should not be the case). At first it was hard to re-create, but it discovered that if the point of impact was on the players knee (or thereabouts), then generally the bug would occur. As far as I know, this was fixed - I haven't seen it happen in a very very long time. Which leads me to believe that rails/rockets were never intended to pass through a fence

Understood

Don't you make the gameply too easy then?
Is having players visible through fences, but not reachable for any weapons, sufficient as tradeoff?
If this is the main agreement and also the intended purpose from Nadeo, I'm fine with that,
and if weapons still manage to pass through... most probably a bug, if the player (hitbox) is noticeably lower than the fence is.

Yes the game is too "easy" - I'd prefer to say "simple" at the risk of being targeted as some sort of elitist. (And anyway, regarding the game being easy -thats a whole different topic)
There is more to it than just being a simple tradeoff. Fences are primarily utilised by defenders (I'm speaking strictly about Elite), as an attacker cannot sit at a fence the entire round and win the round (as they must eliminate everyone or cap the pole). My point is that, by being an attacker you already have the advantage of having a singlehit-kill weapon. This is why I actually feel that fences are somewhat balanced - they are far more useful for a defender than an attacker. When you sit behind a fence as a defender you know that you can't be hit while the attacker is on the other side - that is something that you trust in, and is consistent. When a rail passes through randomly, that consistency is lost.

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it. Balance and consistency matter a lot (probably much more than realism) and help to have fair gaming.

I did not forget it at all, but isn't that asking for too much realism suddenly?
Laser has a very small wavelength compared to the grid size of the typical fences that are placed in SM.
If players can see each other without difficulties, laser should pass it as well without being altered, causing clear hits then, but that is contrary to caspas interpretation

With this response I feel you've opened up another part of the conversation. Judging by your previous posts you want the game to still remain somewhat grounded in reality

yes, exactly! let's say as long as it has a realtively realistic look. I would not wonder if the game had a comic style look - then I would certainly not argue about realism.
But I'd still prefer as much as accurate realism, with and without with the science-fiction stuff. Look a the datapads in Startrek... pure fiction when they appeared back in the time, and now they are reality for everyone.
I recently read about investigations to make portable body x-ray or magentic resonance scanners, but they are still very far away from the "medical tricorder" thing, despite the modern life tracking stuff and apps we can have already.

In my opinion, Fiction should be almost plausible, although it might often be considered as unrealisable at the moment.
That's what I'd like to tell "realistic".
Rockets and lasers are existing nowadays, but not at the size used in SM.
Also the nucleous is not there as real weapon, still it has a rather realistic trajectory.

- but when we get into deeper aspects of it its too much?

Of course not, I was only answering to The_Big_Boo, who made a joke of me, I think. I was talking too much of realism, he added some to it. You perhaps know that he was formerly working for Nadeo?
So my response if it was too much was only jokingly.
Perhaps he meant it sincerelly, and then we are three who like to discuss about such things.

Where do you draw the line on realism?

This is a very good question, and that's what I would also like to ask to Nadeo.
Ideas there are many, but the realism they realize also depends a lot on the feasability of the features like weapons, floor materials, etc.
E.g. some asked for different gravity... How would SM or TM gameply be on the moon or on Mars?
What did Nadeo do? they added jump stations, and recently teleporters. A totally different approach.

Talking about rails passing through fences counts to me as "too much realism". Isn't Nadeo's ethos about keeping things simple?

Agreed, Nadeo certainly wants to keep many things simple, also for the new and young players.
The gap to fill between them, and the more experienced and older players is big.
Gaming for everyone. Is that perhaps asking for too much?

I feel like this whole discussion regarding the intricacies of laser/lightning is irrelevant.
But, lets entertain that idea: the laser is extremely thin and if it can fit through the gaps, then shouldn't it be happening all the time? If it really was the case then I'd imagine it would happen quite a lot.

Well, it depends. A very thin laser has a high chance to pass the fence, but also still a risk to hit the fence, if the fence material is larger than the laser.
If the fence is made of 50% material, the chance to hit or pass the fence would be 50%.
And to some %, we would see refraction or deviation effects, but with the current game engine, I guess this would be impossible to be implemented with realism. There could be a ingame effect of particules scattered, if the laser hits the fence, and no difference between hit and refraction / scattering.
Just take it as an example, but I feel exactly this could be a good place where we could draw the line between realism, fiction and feasibility.

The laser could hit or pass the fence, e.g. using the trilaser logic: three dots in the fence gap -> pass. Otherwise -> fence hit.
And then it could depend on the distance of the attacker to the fence.
The material of the fence could be defined: totally resistant to laser hits, or temporarily melting when hit several times (I know, the weapon needs time to recharge, and consecutive hits at exactly the same place are difficult).

But all this would be very difficult to realize, and the hitbox discussion shows that there are many other and perhaps much more important things to work on.

[Mandark]

http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-conten ... opcorn.gif

sorry, I just had to^^

[caspa]

Also with SM we have the opportunity (and at the same time the problem) that the players can discuss and help to somehow develop the game. Everyone sees things totally differently, especially things which are not real, but fantastic - in terms of fiction.

We have that opportunity but it is very limited. To me, its more of an illusion

Those who were able to walljump were soon treated as cheaters, and then people started claiming to make the walljumps more easy.
Then Nadeo did it, and since walljumps are more easy, they are not such an advantage anymore.

No, none of this is true. Walljumps were a new feature added with beta2. People were calling others hackers because they were able to use a function how it was intended? Words fail me. Essentially you are saying that these people were mad because someone else was better than them at something.
The reason that we were given for the walljump change was that there was some sort of bug in the geometry of the walls, which made them act in the way that they did. Despite this geometry bug giving us some deeper possibilities for gameplay (at the same time it didn't raise the barrier for level of entry), it was taken away from us. And now its been nerfed again to these "variable walljumps". And I can tell you, this is was probably the biggest reason that barely anyone plays obstacle anymore.

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it. Balance and consistency matter a lot (probably much more than realism) and help to have fair gaming.

Again, this is the stance that I have always approached this subject (rail going through fences) from. I was never looking at it from a realism point of view because it is entirely irrelevant from a gameplay perspective.

E.g. some asked for different gravity... How would SM or TM gameply be on the moon or on Mars?
What did Nadeo do? they added jump stations, and recently teleporters. A totally different approach.

Jumppads, teleporters aren't anything new. Certainly not an innovation by nadeo. And they pretty much exist in all arena-FPS games (most would consider SM to fall under this genre/category).

Agreed, Nadeo certainly wants to keep many things simple, also for the new and young players.
The gap to fill between them, and the more experienced and older players is big.
Gaming for everyone. Is that perhaps asking for too much?

Things have always been simple. That was a good thing, people could jump into the game and within a few days compete at a semi-decent level. The whole thing that really boggles my mind is this statement "keep things simple for new players" - the ratio of players leaving was a lot higher than those new players entering. And it still seems to be the case. I don't need to go into details here.

The laser could hit or pass the fence, e.g. using the trilaser logic: three dots in the fence gap -> pass. Otherwise -> fence hit.
And then it could depend on the distance of the attacker to the fence.
The material of the fence could be defined: totally resistant to laser hits, or temporarily melting when hit several times (I know, the weapon needs time to recharge, and consecutive hits at exactly the same place are difficult).

But all this would be very difficult to realize, and the hitbox discussion shows that there are many other and perhaps much more important things to work on.

Yup. But we still get a lot of (in my opinion) useless stuff every patch. There have always been issues with the hitboxes/netcode, and there still are and probably will always continue to be as long as the efforts of the studio are intent on fixing other things. Like when you agreed me with me, players want consistency and balance. ALL players want that, not just the "pros" (I hate this word when its used in the same sentence as shootmania).

[bobbotheclown]

technically if the projectile is too large, no. but maybe it could shatter on impact and send shrapnel through the fence. but the most projectiles don't appear to be going fast enough to either break the fence or shatter on impact.

but then again you appear also shooting energy balls and not physical matter in shootmania, so if theres no physical matter coming out of the gun in theory it could shoot through the fence.

it all depends on whether or not nadeo wants that element of realism in a game that's for the most part only realistic visually. I don't personally think it matters.

although i do think the variable wall jump makes even having the ability to walljump pointless. seeing half the time youll barely jump off the wall at all. its sort of risky to use. seeing it was in the official release, this is one of the few things I think just needed to be left alone.

[oiram456]

Just ask Nadeo if its supposed to be like a wall but that might be too easy

[Alexey85]

Just ask Nadeo if its supposed to be like a wall but that might be too easy

It has been stated already that hits through fences are not intended, physics or not.

[oiram456]

Just ask Nadeo if its supposed to be like a wall but that might be too easy

It has been stated already that hits through fences are not intended, physics or not.

oh sorry didnt knew that..thought hats th whole point of this discussion if its a bug or intended^^

[sadzealot]

Just ask Nadeo if its supposed to be like a wall but that might be too easy

It has been stated already that hits through fences are not intended, physics or not.

oh sorry didnt knew that..thought hats th whole point of this discussion if its a bug or intended^^

No, the discussion is merely to entertain TMarc seeing as he likes to discuss this topic. And like caspa first said, it was only done by TMarc in an attempt to "defend" Nadeo and the game, almost implying "Maybe it was supposed to be like this".

Ofcourse we're talking about a game. Supposed to be competitive and e-sport friendly. Random hits through fences does NOT belong if these are qualities Nadeo are looking for. That's why it should go away completely.

There are also other issues that should go away imo if these are the qualities Nadeo are looking for in SM. Same with other stuff being brought back (There was a reason competitive scene liked Beta2... because it was in fact more competitive.)

But from what little I've understood based on Nadeos statements, they have this weird definition of what indicates good E-sport and a competitive game. Also, a common theme is Nadeo wanting SM to be "easily accessible to new players".

But then they forget that a game being difficult to master and have tricky movement and jumps, does not mean it isn't accessible to beginners. It all comes down to how well stuff is explained to new players, and how well you can progress in the game. But SM unfortunately doesn't have a progress that holds your hands up to a certain level. It's right there as you start, so the best way to make it accessible to new players?

1) An ingame singleplayer-tutorial map with proper ghosts and text explanations of how movement and basic strategy in the game works. This could easily be outsourced to players or someone else within community, and then added in new patch. I'm fairly sure someone is more than willingly to do it if they are given credit somewhere in the tutorial. (Note that I made this suggestion in a thread last year sometime. I'm just saying, is this a BAD suggestion when most of the work-load can be done for free by community? Hardly. Same way they do translations for the game, hire player and community people)

This way new players get introduced to the basics of the game on their own, and a place to practice movement and read up before jumping in to multiplayer. Atleast this way players can choose if they want to jump straight into multiplayer or not. But I really believe a well-made tutorial (that can easily be made with ingame map editor and scripts, and outsourced to community) would do wonders for the game and players enjoyment of it. Having to comb through forums, google, YT-tutorials, meet other players and CHAT (Not talk, no voice communication ingame) about stuff is bothersome.

2) Well-made menus and interface for easy access and understanding. This is something that has troubled Nadeo for a long time, evident by Maniaplanet and it's behaviour ever since it came around. Redesign after redesign and change, and still a whole lot of issues suffering it. Same with explanations of what is possible within Maniaplanet. It should be easily accessible within the game/MP.

Anyways, I apologize for going way off-topic, but I felt it was needed to expand upon this topic, because it does branch out to what Nadeo have stated their goals are about the game. And I think the competitive community, or what once was the competitive community, of SM need to address this to Nadeo. One does not simply differ on definitions of what constitute good E-sport and competitive games and get along well.

And I think that's where Nadeo is going wrong. Ofcourse, Hylis said that something is coming next week that will adress some of these things, so we'll see.

But anyway, this was about that silly thing through fences. No, it shouldn't be there, end of line. Same with a few other stuff that shouldn't be there. And some things that should be there. That would make it a competitive and e-sport like game. More so than now atleast.

Apologize for ranting, but DLing big stuff and got nothing else to do while I wait

[UrinStein]

Why would anyone here want Nadeo to decide about every gameplay decision, or want them to fix things so that they fit their original intention?

I will try with a completely random example:

You sell bread, and you think it might be a smart idea to sell it a small package of jam so people can dip their bread there and eat it on the go or whatever.
Now people come to you and say: "Oh that jam you make is great, but why do you add that piece of bread? They don't taste good together."

What would you do?
Remove the jam again, because it doesn't work with your original intention of selling you bread to people?
Or would you rather scrap the whole idea and just sell people what they want?

The main point that I'm trying to get through to you here is, maps have been built around fences serving that intended function. You can argue all you want how in reality it might act otherwise, but from a pure gameplay view, being able to be shot through it is a bug.

As caspa says, people want fences as solid walls that you can look through. No matter what Nadeo intended to do, or what else could make sense to explain how those fences could work, the only smart move in such a situation is to give the people the fence that they want and which had become a crucial part of Elite at that point.

Nadeo did the right thing and fixed it. And if they instead said they wanted the fences to be semi-penetrable the would simply make the game bad. So in that case their decision would still be wrong.

So please don't even think about what Nadeo intends to do, it does not matter. Things are good, or they are bad.
Luckily Nadeo is not stupid as some people seem to want us to believe.