Stadium eSport Development

[fade3]

I don't understand the point of view that so many have (and you seem to share to some extent) that Stadium is the only trackmania that is or will ever be worth playing. I think it's a preconceived notion that prevents these players from actually giving Canyon and Valley a fair chance.

This thread is solely about Stadium eSport Development. I could say the same about people not understanding why Stadium is the obvious choice to develop further in this regard when the statistics are so overwhelmingly obvious. Moba currently has room for mainly 2 titles, Dota and LoL. If we look at their numbers, can we say that eSport needs more than one title in order to sustain?! And even worse, if the resources for esport racing titles are divided within the very same company??! Where is the logic.

It's also quite clear that Nadeo have no intention of making a deal out of their most successful title but instead have decided for some reason to take up the battle with CSGO and Quake in esport instead. They are failing to see what value lies in a successful free-to-play racing esport title in the current scene. Despite their ignorance for this fact, Stadium is still picked up as the most played racing game offline. This tells us it has potential, but other than some PR for French audience and LANs (In french of course), there is very little effort put into pushing it as the number one esport title worldwide hence the reason to why Stadium is chocking as an esport.

Name 5 companies that offer better support and more meaningful updates. Excluding games with 100,000+ players, i.e. VALVe, Blizzard, Riot. Seriously name 5 if you can, or even 3.

I need to clarify again that everything I've written has only been targeted at the esport development of Stadium and not the other aspects of their company. Can you name any specific and meaningful updates Nadeo has done to further improve Stadium as an esport game? (allright... slidemarks after 5 years). Quite the opposite. Maniaplanet introduced to us worse shadows, more bugs and, to no ones order, a changed camera 2. Hylis have stated earlier that slidemarks is a gimmick. This says a lot about his understanding of an esport game. A successful esport title needs details, it needs support for broadcasters, it needs support for analysis.

hyper-PR crap which bigger corporations like Blizzard are renowned for

I have to break it to you but, hyper-PR crap seems to have worked excellent for Blizzard. In these days where globalization is real, smart and clever PR is worth just as much as a development team or finished product, if not more.

If TrackMania was run by CAPCOM then MP 3.0 would have been a $14.95 DLC. If TrackMania was run by EA then the master servers would be shutdown at the end of the year and any ladder/leaderboard in United would have been shutdown 5+ years ago.

I agree. The companies you mention have no idea how to run a successful esport title whatsoever. Nadeo seems to qualify more and more for this list.

I think some people in this thread have played too much. Perhaps taking a step away from the game, taking a look around at the entire game industry, and gaining some perspective would do them some good. Because you guys are out to lunch if you think Nadeo hasn't done any and everything that could potentially be asked of them.

This is a typical blindfolded fanboy comment. Nadeo are the ones that needs to stay updated in class and look at how the other companies succeed, especially within esport. Their current methods are chaotic, half-motivated and lacking proper PR.

Nadeo does not deserve the blame for how well their games do in regards to Esports. The best they can do is make their games as bug free as possible, offer some support and updates, and hope for the best. Esports games don't become popular unless players are interested, no matter how many time buys are done. Despite the cynical view of advertising running the popularity show, it really comes down to it being a subjective entertainment industry. You could make the best game ever, write the best book ever, direct the best movie ever, and it won't sell 10 copies. Sometimes absolute garbage, money grabs are super popular, just look at Call of Duty, still running on an outdated iteration of the Quake 3 engine of all things.

Nadeo deserves all criticism when it comes to esport in stadium, especially when we see how little effort is being put into it and how they non-prioritize it over shootmania. Who else is there to blame? I bet the competition community has xxxxxx ideas for how to improve stadium as an esport, some of them being very obvious. But Nadeo never reached out specifically for this. They never initiated any campaign to collaborate with the community in this regard. All their resources are being used on maniaplanet basic fixes and updates that should have been sorted out before the system was even launched.

I scratch my head at some of the negative comments in here. In all practical terms Nadeo deserves all the respect that any of the best developers do.

Nadeo deserves a lot of credit for what they have built so far indeed. However, that doesn't change their massive mistakes for stadium and esport so far. I think I know why Hylis reacts quite toxic to negative feedback about this topic though. Nadeo are working incredibly hard and putting a lot of effort into basic maniaplanet fixes so they simply don't have the resources to meet the requirements for stadium and esport. He feels maybe this feedback is not deserved as they already work so hard, but it is his and his fault only to abandon stadium and putting so much effort elsewhere. And he has to deal with the consequences of his actions, which is now a broken trackmania community that initially was their number #1 success (and wait for it... still is)

[LT.Forever]

Guys... GUYS!

Firstly, just take my three cents here:

1) Nadeo is a relatively small company, they aren't Blizzard or Riot or any other company with a big name, they aren't superheros and they have their own limitations regarding pushing updates/introducing new features.
2) It has already been mentioned before that right now their focus is to make ShootMania as polished as possible. TrackMania will have its own year in 2015. Why they can't multitask? Read point 1.
3) That's just purely my view so feel free to drop the hate-hammer on me: you're stating that Hylis is being toxic when it comes to reactions to negative comments. I've been reading this forum from time to time since the Canyon beta and I've not seen one post from Hylis where he did go "too far". He is a human and he has the right to be offended and to have his own view of the situation. HE is the CEO of Nadeo, not you, and whether pointing out the problems is a good thing, but it's better to leave the real decision making to the heads of the company.

Besides, from what I've read in your posts are "this is bad, they are doing this wrong", etc. Would you be happy to have a boss or a client which keeps pointing out what you're doing completely wrong when it's you who has the complete vision of the product and not they?

Criticism is good in discussions and helps to have a better view of the situation but calling one or other "toxic" or simply "fanboying" is taking it too far. Everyone has their own opinion. Saying that your is the best one and other ones are wrong is just bad...

[edk]

@2 post alt account:

I'm not keen on petty insults, nor is someone a fanboy on the basis they don't agree with you. If you'd like to have a mature discussion, then have one without the adolescent, elitist attitude. My thoughts on ShootMania, an admittedly self-righteous, uber-competetive, Quake-is-the-best-or-GTFO, hyper biased opinion, negate me from fanboy status. I'm too critical for my own good in all honesty, but that doesn't obfuscate my thoughts as to what Nadeo has done for their games. To reiterate, there is not another comparable company that has done as much for it's games as Nadeo, not in general terms or as can be applicable towards esports growth.

Hence, I simply asked for you to name 5 companies (besides the incomparable, corporate powerhouses of VALVe, Blizzard, and Riot) that have done atleast as much for their game that is potentially esports viable. This was not a rhetorical question.

The reason I say I'm baffled is that your essentially criticizing a company for doing 95% of everything they're capable of doing because they aren't doing 99% of what they're capable of doing. Then you attribute those 4% percentage points for lack of player interest and esports growth. I'm simply stating the idea that demographics and a changing market climate (of what amounts to a subjectively interpreted entertainment product) is the actual culprit in the lack of popularity. This industry is not predicated on quality alone, but atleast as much as on the subjective whims of teenagers that think LoL and CoD are the best thing since sliced bread.

[fade3]

Hence, I simply asked for you to name 5 companies (besides the incomparable, corporate powerhouses of VALVe, Blizzard, and Riot) that have done atleast as much for their game that is potentially esports viable. This was not a rhetorical question.

The reason I say I'm baffled is that your essentially criticizing a company for doing 95% of everything they're capable of doing because they aren't doing 99% of what they're capable of doing. Then you attribute those 4% percentage points for lack of player interest and esports growth. I'm simply stating the idea that demographics and a changing market climate (of what amounts to a subjectively interpreted entertainment product) is the actual culprit in the lack of popularity. This industry is not predicated on quality alone, but atleast as much as on the subjective whims of teenagers that think LoL and CoD are the best thing since sliced bread.

I'm not here to talk about other companies that doesn't even aim for any eSport related content. I'm here to discuss what Nadeo have done or can do to make Stadium better as an eSport title regardless of their resources. Since you claim Nadeo has been so great on this particular subject, could you elaborate for us? Do you know what defines a good eSport game?

You talk about a changing market climate. With some effort and intuitive updating of their already most successful and popular racing title, Nadeo could change the "subjective whims of teenagers" over the night. A couple of new ideas and new aspects to the gameplay could revolutionize racing as an eSport, but Nadeo seem to have settled with a version of the game which is exactly the same as back in 2006 when it was launched. Except for some graphics updates and new blocks, the rest is done pretty much by the community.

Can you explain us why ~4000 concurrent connections is happening in TMUF while the maniaplanet system can only answer with a mere ~1000 concurrent connections for _all_ maniaplanet titles combined? Even the increase in players coming from the recent announced demo have faded away already, so much for that.

On another note

I can see that Nadeo is stuck in a pretty tricky situation atm for taking so much over their heads by starting this maniaplanet project. The project has a lot of potential but I really question my self if it has the right development team behind it to become successful. Stadium has already suffered a big loss during the transition, but Hylis keeps saying it needs time and they aim for the long shot. How far can it be stretched? Is it stretched too far already? How much patience can they ask for before the damage is really done? The hardcore fans will always stay here and wait for whatever comes up next, but this hardcore fanbase is certainly not increasing and Nadeo has made very little effort to take care of it in the last few years.

I'm having high hopes for 2015 though, which supposedly is to be the "Year of TrackMania". If it only means a new environment to the list, I have to say, I'm completely giving up all hope.

Another big question is, what does Ubisoft really contribute with? Ubisoft's reputation isn't one of the best in the gaming industry and eSport is non-existent in their vision.

[edk]

I think it's safe to say you don't typically take up debates.

You are just an empassioned player who would like to see this game be more popular. I think that's great though. I'll let you have the last word as I'm guessing that's something you'll want to have.

[jojoba007]

- Hylis/Nadeo have failed to follow up on their successor in stadium which has been their definite strongest product. Their move to maniaplanet destroyed a lot of what they built up in Stadium and it's user base. With the introduction of maniaplanet, they've taken too much over their heads and it's resulting in a greedy concept with slow development and unfinished products. The fact that they initially weren't going to introduce stadium in maniaplanet and haven't utilized more of stadium is mind blowing.

OMG, you are so right!!! You said it all!

I wanted to make this post as brutal as possible to see what the responses will be like. Let's see if people can grasp the meaning instead of just being offended. Remember, after all it's just a combination of 8-bit unicode posted on a forum.

Well said! Can you imagine that with Stadium being their strongest product and not building forward on this? It's exactly what I said before! Why delivering different TM2 environments if your greatest community driven game, Stadium, can be build uppon? I don't get this? 10.000.000 subscribers because of Stadium and you build 2 other half finished environments with a completely wrong formula. These 10.000.000 subscribers did subcribe because stadium was free 2 play in the first place!

Come with a good quality free 2 play model and get those 10.000.000 stadium subscribers back to trackmania as soon as possible!

And please don't feel offended, the reason I wright this is because we want Trackmania to succeed

Nadeo should have put all energy on a stadium 2 environment and build uppon Stadium with monthly new building blocks, cars, track packs, whatever more and sell this! Ingame advertisement or whatever ....

Maniaplanet is way to ambitious with how many different games / environments? Man with this energy we could have a looooots of building blocks in Stadium 2! The old stadium community would go grazy! And this stadium community was, and maybe if you turn the tide, is your biggest money target.

Sorry to say this, but the hardcore trackmania players, lurking around this forum, will always say how great TM2 and ManiaPlanet is, but they don't understand that the majority of the players only liked the stadium experience and not TM2. I can tell this because all my friends played stadium, but didn't like TM2 at all! It's not because stadium was free, they all payed for TM2. Played it ten times, went back for stadium!

So if you hardcore TM fans would like to see more of TM in the future then you can better support the idea to build uppon stadium and with another formula! Stadium is what made TM really populair, and those handfull of hardcore TM fans did not! Dont feel offended, its just the bitter truth!

And what I don't understand either is that TM2 leans more towards a serious driving game (like Dirt) instead development should have gone the exact opposite way. It should have had even more grazy blocks then stadium had! Thats how TM should have distinguish itself from the mass!

- Stadium 2
- Free 2 Play

.... And come up with a good formula to get these 10.000.000 Stadium players back! Google, league of legends Anyone?

[jui]

- Free 2 Play

Tbh if you think making the game free 2 play instantly brings in like 10000 players you are wrong. TM is already more f2p than 90% of f2p games. Also there are lots of f2p games nobody plays.
You can play for free 2 days after registration and then you could theoretical play for free in the TM2 titlepack because < 100 concurrent players and if this limit is reached then players could create dummy titles so free accounts can play there. TM2 is virtually f2p.

And what I don't understand either is that TM2 leans more towards a serious driving game (like Dirt) instead development should have gone the exact opposite way. It should have had even more grazy blocks then stadium had! Thats how TM should have distinguish itself from the mass!

i agree with that.

[jojoba007]

bh if you think making the game free 2 play instantly brings in like 10000 players you are wrong. TM is already more f2p than 90% of f2p games. Also there are lots of f2p games nobody plays.
You can play for free 2 days after registration and then you could theoretical play for free in the TM2 titlepack because < 100 concurrent players and if this limit is reached then players could create dummy titles so free accounts can play there. TM2 is virtually f2p

Yeah, it's true that a lot of free 2 play games are left alone by players. But Stadium already had a big community so if you make Stadium 2 a quality free 2 play game, I believe that those subscribers will return way faster then when they have to pay for the game like in TM2. The reason I believe Stadium was that populair was the combination of having that special touch, that only some games have, and also being free 2 play. Offcourse free 2 play means that Nadeo has to come up with a model to still make a lot of money out of the game, even if the game is "free 2 play".

A good free 2 play model gives the client the feeling not being limmited because the game is free to play. Look at Google, even if it's not about games, but Google gives his users a lot of great products, for free, without feeling limmited. The same goes for league of Legends, they give there players a great experience, for free, without feeling limmited. That's a great free 2 play model.
They did it, so it must be possible in some way for Stadium 2 aswell.

But I do also think if Nadeo understood Stadium better then they wouldn't have made the more serious approach in TM2. But instead learned from the grazyness of Stadium. It's not only because Stadium was free to play that so many people played the game. It's because it was the best TM game. Like you said, even if the TM2 environments would be free to play, I don't think a lot of players would show up. If I where Nadeo I would build upon Stadium.

[TMarc]

Look at Google, even if it's not about games, but Google gives his users a lot of great products, for free, without feeling limmited.

This comparison is totally invalid. Don't forget that Google makes a huge lot of (if not the most of) money with advertisements and with selling the data all the people are giving to Google for free and without even thinking of it.
That Google gives a few things for free is just peanuts and doodads for them, because even in those things they collect data about everyones usage.
You simply don't feel a limitation because Google makes just everything look and feel so much comfortable that users don't even dare to aks wich data they are giving and where it goes.
The ration give / get is totally disproportionate here.

Please think about this:
If Nadeo would give TM² Stadium with mostly full features for free, where would they make the money with?
Ingame advertisement? More expensive and perhaps new and much better titles?
Always remember: Nothing is really for free!
Either there are disadvantages, reductions, or some compromises.

Now, you still want to have a free Stadium? Then stop arguing about its contents, its quality, possible improvements, etc.
Or with other words: don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[jojoba007]

Look at Google, even if it's not about games, but Google gives his users a lot of great products, for free, without feeling limmited.

This comparison is totally invalid. Don't forget that Google makes a huge lot of (if not the most of) money with advertisements and with selling the data all the people are giving to Google for free and without even thinking of it.
That Google gives a few things for free is just peanuts and doodads for them, because even in those things they collect data about everyones usage.
You simply don't feel a limitation because Google makes just everything look and feel so much comfortable that users don't even dare to aks wich data they are giving and where it goes.
The ration give / get is totally disproportionate here.

Please think about this:
If Nadeo would give TM² Stadium with mostly full features for free, where would they make the money with?
Ingame advertisement? More expensive and perhaps new and much better titles?
Always remember: Nothing is really for free!
Either there are disadvantages, reductions, or some compromises.

Now, you still want to have a free Stadium? Then stop arguing about its contents, its quality, possible improvements, etc.
Or with other words: don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I don't say that Nadeo should give their game away for free, I say that those 10.000.000 Stadium subscribers did show up because of two reasons and these are, 1: Stadium is the best TM game, and 2: It was free to play.

And it's not about arguing about TM2's content, it's about TM being so populair because of Stadium. But what does Nadeo do? Build 2 completely other TM environments instead of building further on stadiums Succes and model and keep those 10.000.000 into the franchise.

And yes it's gonna be hard to build upon the model of Stadium in some form of free to play. But other games did it with a lot of Succes. Stadium has an advantage with its already big player base. Make the game free, sell the editor, sell building blocks, sell map packs for small amounts of money. I don't know. Come up with a modern form of TM model in the form of free 2 play. And make Stadium 2 less serious than TM2 with even more wacky blocks than Stadium had.

And Bam, back are those subscribers!