Playerproblem

[ChillyBilli]

I want to help this game to somehow get more popularity. Much gamemodes are not playable anymore because of the lack of other players. I joined some discussions about features of the game but I realized that even if they where perfect that may not be enough to attract much more players. So I put down my thoughts about the main issues of the game hear. I'm in no way qualified to say anything about this but I did wrote down my thoughts anyway in hope that some of the ideas in it will help somehow.



1. Problem:
too few new players



Reason 1:
complexity of movement and featuring of hard gamemodes like elite

This point doesn't really needs an explanation. Shootmania is definitely less noob friendly as games like CoD or BF.
The thing I don't understand with that is the popularity of LoL. Its very complicated when starting with it.
Is the big difference that LoL is free to play. Maybe?


reason 2:
competitive gameplay

You started with Trackmania. This game was extremly popular and lead you to what you are. I thought about why Shootmania doesn't have this impact. I think there is a main difference between the gameplay of the two games beside the different genres. Trackmania was competitive. every fault you did brought you more down in the leaderboard. the leaderboard... that's where the competition took its place. getting the best time relative to your opponents. What is shootmania compared to that. its the same with the difference that your "track difficulty" is directly linked to the skill your opponents have.
If you play against pros you will not only see that on the leaderboard but also feel it in the gameplay which is much more frustrating. Therefore the gameplay is much more competitive which leads to Problem 2.


Reason 3:
cliff between noobs and pros

Noobs will often play with better players. Therefore their "track difficulty" is other their skill level. They get frustrated. Good players will get "easy tracks" which leads to flow and motivation and faster skill development.
Therefore for noobs its really hard to develop skill ad pros can easily get motivated and develop their skill rapidly.
An example:
Pros rush you so you die before really getting into the game and improve your skills. This way there is no learning curve and much frustration.



Problem 2:
loss of players


resaon 1:
flaming

Things like luck, smurf, lag, ping, rusher, hacker, ez, etc. (I really found surprisingly much =P) prevent positive conversations and things like a simple gj or nt. Have you ever seen somebody on trackmania blaming the best player on a server for luck, cheating or anything else? nearly every time a player reaches a good global ranking on a server he gets the honour of the players in the chat for it. (I didnt even heard such negative words as I mentioned above in Trackmania yet) The few positive feedback may result in the ones who get only motivated by ranks which leads to smurfs and eve more frustration for over players.


reason 2:
hatred against new features

Imagine you have a given amount of skill. This will give you a specific rank in the rankig system.
Without improving your skill you will keep this ranking. So now nadeo implements a new feature, no matter how good or bad it is. If you are doing nothing now the other people who learn to play with the new feature will get better then you are. you just loose some of your advantage you got through hard training. in other words: to keep your level you are forced to learn to play with the new feature and improve your skill.

These reasons are directly linked to the competitive gameplay of SM.




Possible solution:
Make a titel wich gets popular and creates through the connection over Maniaplanet playerbases for SM, TM, QM.

-Sell it as a complete and free game. This might create much more interests in the media. Furthermore its easier to get friends playing when you say its free to play and dont have to explain the demo limitations.

-make gamemode(s) for this title which are easy to learn and not frustrating. A tutorial for movement system and the gamemode(s) should be implemented. Big waiting times should be prevented after dying.

-Make it less competitive. As I sad above Shootmania is much more competitive the Trackmania was. this might prevent new players from getting into the game and frustrate players which are already playing a longer time.

*first the thing I think is made very good to reach this goal already: In most gamemodes you have two lives. So you get punished by dying only every second hit. But you get a reward for every hit. So there are over all more rewards then punishment. A game where this is made very bad is Assassins Creed multiplayer. There are only one hit kills. The gameplay is extremely frustrating. So in our noobfriendly gamemode(s) more lives would be a great idea.

*Make the skill level of different players less easy to compare. For example: If both players have laser and one eliminates the other its pretty clear he is the better player.
If one player has rockets the other one laser the thing isn't that clear anymore. So the loadouts of the players should be different. They dont even need to be balanced just different.
Maybe some different characters to choose from.

*Make hitting more random. This sounds stupid but it will prevent big gaps between pros and noobs. The best comparison is laser an rocket. Because you have much more projectiles with the rocket its easier to hit with them without having much skill.
On the opposite side its not too easy to hit with them when you are a pro because there is some randomness in the movement of the enemy which you need to predict because of the flight time. If you don't hit with a rocket nobody will blame you.
Rockets are not totally random but much more random as the laser is. More weapons like them are needed.

-long time motivation
That's a point I personally dislike. In my opinion Shootmania's gameplay is enough motivation for going on playing but there are much player which get much more motivated through level ups and other progression the game gives you.
A ranking system is already implemented but it doesn't serve its purpose of motivation in higher ranks. I want to share the experiences I made with it. Most people reach a point where they cant progress in the world ranking anymore. They get very frustrated when loosing points and going down the leaderboard too. I know people who partly stopped playing SM caused by that.
So we need a system which rewards you not only for skill but for playing time too.
Unlockable weapons are a motivations used in very popular titels.
Complexity is used as motivation too. Different Characters or loadouts lead to new, interesting and different ways of playing. There are tactics in shootmania that aren't changed anymore and which are getting boring. For example the defender positions in elite. New loadouts could break this old tactics and bring new room for experiments into the game. An idea for preventing noobs to get rushed for example would be a pulswave throwing back the enemies. Free teleportation in elite could prevent standard defender positions.

Thanks to be so crazy to read all this! =P

[novationx]

-long time motivation
That's a point I personally dislike. In my opinion Shootmania's gameplay is enough motivation for going on playing but there are much player which get much more motivated through level ups and other progression the game gives you.
A ranking system is already implemented but it doesn't serve its purpose of motivation in higher ranks. I want to share the experiences I made with it. Most people reach a point where they cant progress in the world ranking anymore. They get very frustrated when loosing points and going down the leaderboard too. I know people who partly stopped playing SM caused by that.
So we need a system which rewards you not only for skill but for playing time too.
Unlockable weapons are a motivations used in very popular titels.
Complexity is used as motivation too. Different Characters or loadouts lead to new, interesting and different ways of playing. There are tactics in shootmania that aren't changed anymore and which are getting boring. For example the defender positions in elite. New loadouts could break this old tactics and bring new room for experiments into the game. An idea for preventing noobs to get rushed for example would be a pulswave throwing back the enemies. Free teleportation in elite could prevent standard defender positions.

Thanks to be so crazy to read all this! =P

Maybe NADEO doesnt play enough ShootMania to realise this. ShootMania can be really fun for a while but it gets boring really quick. (Elite + defenders = perfect example.)

This game is also véry hard to learn.
"yes, but Novationx you only move with 1 button. Its easy."
No, its verrrrry difficult & not intuitive. Its not bad at all, but we need tutorials ASAP.

Also laser & rockets isnt enough. The game has no "replayability". For new player the Echelons are everything, but after 2weeks they realise its not good & they dont care about anything anymore.

No stats, no server-ranks, no achievement, no unlocks, no nothing. Only planets to "donate to servers" ( = boring as F*ck )

So much potential, so much grow-margin Please see it.

[TGYoshi]

Reason 1:
complexity of movement and featuring of hard gamemodes like elite

This point doesn't really needs an explanation. Shootmania is definitely less noob friendly as games like CoD or BF.
The thing I don't understand with that is the popularity of LoL. Its very complicated when starting with it.
Is the big difference that LoL is free to play. Maybe?

SM isn't hard to get in to in my opinion, it's very simple. Too simple even (Combo etc add more depth, which is nice)? Explain it.
At least modes like Melee/Royal/Battle (where it all started with) are VERY noob friendly and casual. Elite's just plain boring imo.

LoL is not hard to get in to too, at the beginning however you just don't really get what you're doing but you're able to play, that's what matters. You always know the basics (fire an ability, attack, move, buy items...), just not the details, but that gives the game a lot more depth then SM. This ensures players also stick and don't get bored after a while, which is why I like MOBAs myself, they don't feel repetitive at all (if done somewhat right).

Simplicity to get started is what keeps players inside who bothered trying it out (Titles harm the simplicity imo). Non-repetitiveness or some other way to keep the player engaged is what keeps players who tend to like it (wheras Elite is imo very boring, Combo is by far in the right direction, Royal/Battle/Melee are casual modes for inbetween).

That's how I view it, at least.

[sadzealot]

-long time motivation
That's a point I personally dislike. In my opinion Shootmania's gameplay is enough motivation for going on playing but there are much player which get much more motivated through level ups and other progression the game gives you.
A ranking system is already implemented but it doesn't serve its purpose of motivation in higher ranks. I want to share the experiences I made with it. Most people reach a point where they cant progress in the world ranking anymore. They get very frustrated when loosing points and going down the leaderboard too. I know people who partly stopped playing SM caused by that.
So we need a system which rewards you not only for skill but for playing time too.
Unlockable weapons are a motivations used in very popular titels.
Complexity is used as motivation too. Different Characters or loadouts lead to new, interesting and different ways of playing. There are tactics in shootmania that aren't changed anymore and which are getting boring. For example the defender positions in elite. New loadouts could break this old tactics and bring new room for experiments into the game. An idea for preventing noobs to get rushed for example would be a pulswave throwing back the enemies. Free teleportation in elite could prevent standard defender positions.

Thanks to be so crazy to read all this! =P

Maybe NADEO doesnt play enough ShootMania to realise this. ShootMania can be really fun for a while but it gets boring really quick. (Elite + defenders = perfect example.)

This game is also véry hard to learn.
"yes, but Novationx you only move with 1 button. Its easy."
No, its verrrrry difficult & not intuitive. Its not bad at all, but we need tutorials ASAP.

Also laser & rockets isnt enough. The game has no "replayability". For new player the Echelons are everything, but after 2weeks they realise its not good & they dont care about anything anymore.

No stats, no server-ranks, no achievement, no unlocks, no nothing. Only planets to "donate to servers" ( = boring as F*ck )

So much potential, so much grow-margin Please see it.

Are you able to go one post without whining? xD

[novationx]

-long time motivation
That's a point I personally dislike. In my opinion Shootmania's gameplay is enough motivation for going on playing but there are much player which get much more motivated through level ups and other progression the game gives you.
A ranking system is already implemented but it doesn't serve its purpose of motivation in higher ranks. I want to share the experiences I made with it. Most people reach a point where they cant progress in the world ranking anymore. They get very frustrated when loosing points and going down the leaderboard too. I know people who partly stopped playing SM caused by that.
So we need a system which rewards you not only for skill but for playing time too.
Unlockable weapons are a motivations used in very popular titels.
Complexity is used as motivation too. Different Characters or loadouts lead to new, interesting and different ways of playing. There are tactics in shootmania that aren't changed anymore and which are getting boring. For example the defender positions in elite. New loadouts could break this old tactics and bring new room for experiments into the game. An idea for preventing noobs to get rushed for example would be a pulswave throwing back the enemies. Free teleportation in elite could prevent standard defender positions.

Thanks to be so crazy to read all this! =P

Maybe NADEO doesnt play enough ShootMania to realise this. ShootMania can be really fun for a while but it gets boring really quick. (Elite + defenders = perfect example.)

This game is also véry hard to learn.
"yes, but Novationx you only move with 1 button. Its easy."
No, its verrrrry difficult & not intuitive. Its not bad at all, but we need tutorials ASAP.

Also laser & rockets isnt enough. The game has no "replayability". For new player the Echelons are everything, but after 2weeks they realise its not good & they dont care about anything anymore.

No stats, no server-ranks, no achievement, no unlocks, no nothing. Only planets to "donate to servers" ( = boring as F*ck )

So much potential, so much grow-margin Please see it.

Are you able to go one post without whining? xD

yes, but not without complaining it seems

[UrinStein]

I completely disagree with you ChillyBilly and i also disagree with you novationx.

This post got kinda outta control, so I would only blame ChillyBilly if he didn't read the last part beginning with the quote.


First of all I wanna say, that I played Trackmania Nations for 3-4 years prior to switching to Shootmania. I bought myself a United Account once the Free Zone was introduced but stuck with playing Stadium anyway.

I consider Stadium a highly competitive game, that you need to put a lot of time and effort into before you get any good at it. Most people I know, played it for years and still had much to learn. Yet the game didn't get frustrating because of how long it took to get better, because you got direct and detailed feedback on how you were progressing, as you got your time every time you finished the very short tracks. Also the basic principles were easy to understand:
accalerate, left, right and brake for sliding and airbreaking were the only things you needed, for buttons.

That game wasn't simple and noob friendly at all though. Easy to learn, hard to master is still what Stadium stands for for me. You could utilise those few features so differently for different mapstyles and on each of those styles you had to perfect them again. It's incredible how bad some people still were after playing the same maps on the same sever for years. For the actually good people out there, that was probably what I looked like to them :D


Storm is for me very much the same as Stadium was.
Besides WASD, Shoot and "the Action Button" are the only ones you will ever need (not counting the very new Free Look, which i am not competent enough to cover anyway).
But using that one button (the Action Button) is exactly what makes the difference in this game. I am pretty good making use of it in specific modes. In other modes again I suck hard. Same for other people. I've been playing for 2 years now, but I still feel challenged enough to want to refine my skills or maybe acquire skills that I haven't still (like proper obstacle skills -.-).
All in all I feel very much like in may Trackmania days and that's why I am here.

As you say, the difference between TM and SM is:
In TM you play on the map/mode against yourself,
in SM you play on the map, in the mode, against yourself and against your opponent(s) and often even depend on your teammates.

First of all I wanna quickly say, that there's the reason, why the Shootmania community tends to be less friendly than the one in TM.
In Trackmania no one can come and destroy my run with... a nice shot, luck, trolling or anything. It is always definitely and obviously my own fault when I suck. (still some people manage to flame on you when you're good in TM calling you a cheater and all that shit)
In Shootmania your teammates might suck hard, when you finally have a good day and you lose anyway... or you opponent frags you again and again and who would like that? Getting angry when losing because of things that you can't control is nothing worth discussing, that's normal, it'll happen all the time. Flaming other people because of that is no appropriate reaction to that, but that's how young guys are, deal with it.

Your answer to that is, making the game a less painful place for beginners by making it of a less competitive nature.
Laugh about it, but i feel like that's exactly the direction Nadeo is trying to take Storm right now.

Your suggestions include making hitting more random, which's (<- is that correct? o.O) racing equivalent would be: the rubber band effect. A mechanism use a lot in popular online based games like Gran Turismo 5 and the Need For Speed titles... no wait, those games have never been known for a particular interesting online experience.
Nah my friend, features like this have one purpose: keeping your opponents always near around you, so they neither get to far behind, making the game bring, nor to far ahead, making it frustrating and seem to hard to beat. I can live with that in single player games, as you are wanted to get through the game with a bit of excitement and challenge while being able to experience all of the game's content like everyone else playing the game.

But why would you want in a PvP centred game, like every game by Nadeo so far. What's the purpose of playing against someone when the game will always tweak on the physics to balance you out. You wouldn't even be able to notice if you got any better, because the game would just downgrade the buffs it gave you in the beginning or even give you debuffs when you play against a worse player. It would look like everyone's the same, from the day they started to the day the game dies.
Granted, I said it's easy to tell in TM when you get better, that's not quite the case with SM, not being able to compare your performances by numbers. But still, sometime you'll notice and at the end of the day, that's why you played. At least it is why I played.

Obviously I am a bit exaggerating all of this, but you get the idea. I don't get why bothering with PvP if there is no fair comparison of skill to begin with. When people cannot deal with the fact, that other people are better than them, then I'd say they are just not a competitive kind of person and they might prefer a singleplayer or coop based game.

Same thing applies to this whole motivation by achievements and shit discussion.
This time I can see where you're coming from. It's basically gamification in a game to fool people into thinking they are progressing or their time spent in the game is translated into some kind of worth, but that simply kills the whole competitive and simplistic mood for me, that I always got out of this game.
This game should stand for competitive play, creativity in making gamemodes, maps and other stuff, experimenting with the environment we have at our hands and doing stuff with other people.
Achievements will turn people into egocentric achievement-zombie-whores undermining the whole idea of Maniaplanet.

You might not agree with me on this last passage, but fuck you, go play Cookie Clicker.

Gamemodes that focus on progression, leveling and all that jazz are kinda the same thing to me. These are often easy tricks to make the players feel better about what they have achieved in this playing session, without any guarantee, that they actually got any better at what they just did.
Prime example is the worst Titlepack ever released in the history of Maniaplanet: Platform. This mode is supposed to show the people how much fun the collectible items, that have been introduced with this Powerup! thing, can make the game. I played several maps of it, getting gold ranking and all the other stuff. It's the shittiest thing I have ever experienced in this game.

That mode doesn't help anyone achieve anything ever in Shootmania. You won't learn how to manage your limited amount of stamina, because each checkpoint is so short and the overall time is not measured. You will not learn any interesting moves because all the movement on those shit maps is so bland and uninteresting, a five year old would come up with the routes. Also all maps are so full of those new anti-movement blocks, that it is incredibly hard to smoothly traverse through the maps, even though now moves at all are required in the mode. You will come out of the mode with the same understanding of this game, as you went in.
That mode, showing off the possibilities of collectible items in this game, just shows off how those items don't fit into the game at all. Or at least it simply didn't manage to get em to work...

maybe I will make a thread dedicated to this abomination of a mode sometime in the future. If anyone's interested, tell me. :D


All in all:
I feel like you summarised why a certain bunch of people are not here: they are not here, cause they want a very different game experience. An experience that I, being a Nadeo customer for 5/6 years now, don't want. I want this one. Or at least, the one we had some months ago.
Until then, Nadeo was pretty darn good at delivering what I and a bunch of other people wanted, so changing this direction of development that they had for a long-ass-time would result in me and some others stopping to play this game and totally different people, with different expectations, playing instead.

Would that be better for the game? I don't know... if Nadeo is here to give people some Care-Bear-esque gaming experience. Would they even be good at it? Who knows...
Would I like it either way? Certainly not.

hatred against new features

Imagine you have a given amount of skill. This will give you a specific rank in the rankig system.
Without improving your skill you will keep this ranking. So now nadeo implements a new feature, no matter how good or bad it is. If you are doing nothing now the other people who learn to play with the new feature will get better then you are. you just loose some of your advantage you got through hard training. in other words: to keep your level you are forced to learn to play with the new feature and improve your skill.

I'm sorry, but this is complete bullshit. As one of those persons that have been very, very dissatisfied by a bunch of the latest gameplay changes and having read what other people ay about this matter, I can assure you, you totally got us wrong!

Please understand that every time there is a big discussion concerning new/changed gameplay features, people actually say why they think it's bad for the game, not bad for them.

The game has a certain list of features of which each affects 1. the gameplay and 2. the skill cap.
Some features are not liked by some because they change the gameplay in a way, that is not as enjoyable as it was before.
Other features, like the b3 walljump and the once removed minijump (which has been found a compromise for), are said to decrease the skill cap. The problem people have with that is not, that skills, that they don't have are added to the game, so they need to relearn part of the game to get back to their level of skill. The problem is the other way around, people are begging for the skill cap to rise, so the have new motivation to learn stuff in this game, learning new moves to express their creativity in the game environment. The b3 Walljump is said to be far simpler than the b2 one, making it easier for everyone to utilise it on the same level, but restricing your possibilities with it. Possibilities that, once learned, can set you apart from other players, not only in amount of skill, but also in playstyle.

[Livert]

Well, I agree and disagree to chilly in a few points...

First of all this whole achievement thing. I personally like that there isn´t any but if it would be implemented in the right way it wouldn´t bother me and it might be good for the long time motivation of some players. I would design those achievements more like some kind of statistics. For example there is already the win-statistic implemented into the game. So why don´t add things like "The player managed to win every attack round of a game XXX times." This is something which everybody would try to accomplish anyway so it won´t change anything about the way someone plays the game. There could also be simple stuff like achievements for rising to a higher echelon level. The problem would be that achievements are only cool if you can show them to other people. I thought about being able to place some icons of achievements where currently the stars are placed. At least such statistical achievements might tell you more about a player´s skill than that whole ranking system.

This leads me directly to the next point (i don´t know whether one of you guys mentioned it). I think the ranking system needs to be redesigned... When playing on gold level you can only gain points when your team wins. What happens to me a lot is that in my opponent team there is one ech9 guy who is a lot better than me and 2 guys whome I could easily beat. Now that ech9 guy wins every of his attack rounds and makes most of the deffer hits. At the end of the game the ech9 guy gets some LP (which is fine) and those other 2 guys get +0 while I get -80 even if I played a lot better than them. I´m just asking myself how this is fair... You need good stats and a good team to gain LP but you can lose LP with good stats and a bad team o.O ...

Sell it as a complete and free game.

I´m sorry to troll around chilly but I simply love that sentence of yours xD

Now what can we do to win more beginners for the game again? I would recommend making each gamemode accesable for free until you reach silver or gold rank. I would recommend gold rank. In case you don´t want to spend the money then you can still play other gamemodes but are playing the game for so long when reaching ech7 that it just would be the right thing to spend the money as a reward for the game with which you spend that much of your time. In addition this would be less complicated than the way the demo version currently works. And another important thing would be to create servers where ONLY beginners can play. There are servers which you only can enter when you have more than XXX LP. Why don´t set a limit like you can only enter a server when you have less than XXX LP. Of course there would also need to be "mixed" servers for friends with different skill levels who wanna play together anyway.

Another problem for beginners (especially when introducing a limit like mentioned earlier) are all those smurf accounts... Why can´t Nadeo make it harder to create smurf accounts? I created a 2nd acount a while ago myself cause I wanted to show the game to some friends and didn´t know how well the mm would work with one ech7 and 2 ech0 guys. I was a little shocked that you don´t even have to choose different e-mail adresses for those accounts! Why isn´t there a limit for just one account per e-mail adress!? It won´t help much but it will be more trouble to create a 2nd account at least for some guys. Not to mention that there are enough people out there with 3, 4 or maybe even 5 accounts...

Third problem is that beginners can enter other servers than the mm servers since mp3. I don´t think that this is a good idea (just talking about elite game mode here). When you join a 6slot server it often takes a lot of time until the server is filled with 6 guys. So you end up playing a lot of 2vs1 or something like this on maps which were designed for 3vs1. At least in my oppinion the game mode is a lot more boring when not having the game filled with 6 people. In addition people intend to leave a match on a 6slot server more often than on a mm server. Another negative aspect is that some servers are running maps which are a lot worse than the official mappack which might also give a beginner a wrong first picture of the game.

Another problem for beginners are the missing tutorials. There should at least be one tutorial map which explains how every of the blocks can be used and how the basic movement works. Some kind of obstacle map for beginners would be nice here. Just to show what´s possible in the game... Maybe it would be nice to enter some obstacle maps as single player maps like it is in trackmania (but please with a better map quality xD). There should also be tutorials for the different tools of the game. I for example tried myself without looking for tutorials with the replay editor and couldn´t find out how it is supposed to work. Having to search for tutorials on the internet is kind of annoying and i think there are still a lot of guys out there wo won´t even have the idea to google it (or who simply don´t want to...

Sorry about the bad structure but I forgot something about the achievements... Another problem would be here that you would need some kind of reward for certain achievements... The only things which I could think of are special horns, player skins or planets. But planets are kind of useless unless you wanna open your own 90k server and player skins and horns are makeable by the community as well. So it would somehow stand in conflict with this whole "the community designs the game"-thing.

Shootmania is an ego shooter and trackmania is a racing game so it´s hard to compare them regarding to the paying experience. If you want a shootmania which works like trackmania you would have a gamemode with tracks (yeah right tracks! not maps!) which take you around a minute to finish not only with some trick moves but also with bots which you have to hit while performing those trick moves. So kind fo like obstacle in easier but with shooting. That might be a funny idea for a game mode but it´s not really the way which an ego shooter is supposed to work, is it???

Another very important thing to make this game more popular would be to raise the overall quality of maps. Since the biggest part of the community doesn´t really care for giving usable feedback to the authors that´s kind of hard to accomplish. Also some tutorials would be nice here which explain to you what´s important for the maps of the different game modes (at least the basics)...

Now the last point I would like to mention. For me shootmania looks a lot like they just copied things which were working in trackmania without thinking about the difference between the two games. Best example is that map karma vote stuff... In trackmania it works because you can only vote if you could finish the map. This is equal with you can only vote if you are good enough to finish the map (at least on fullspeed tracks). In shootmania you can vote after standing in the spawn for 2 seconds and not having seen a single part of the map. In addition it takes a lot longer to get to know an ego shooter map than a racing map. In trackmania there are servers with 200maps and more and here most of the server have less than 20 maps... So that karma vote stuff would need to be redesigned... But it´s a lot harder to tell when a player should be allowed to vote for a map in an ego shooter than in a racing game...

[djhubertus]

Shootmania has chance to grow after last Quake Live update anyway

So we should spam facebook, youtube, steam about this game and universal demo.

[sadzealot]

Shootmania has chance to grow after last Quake Live update anyway

So we should spam facebook, youtube, steam about this game and universal demo.

Rofl. You do know UT is coming in the near future right? It's the death of any growth and exposure for SM in the FPS-world.

[djhubertus]

rofl, UT with final release will come on 2016 or 2017 so they have time to grow.