Everything Wrong with Turbo... and TM2/TMU too.

[Naveronasis_TM2]

Don't get me wrong I <3 track-mania and have been building maps since at least 2008. And turbo has other redeeming qualities that wont be talked about much in this thread (or rant whatever you wanna call it). But with that out of the way... Nadeo we need to have a conversation.

I feel like you are falling into this trap where people want x,y, and z, and instead your living in your own reality where the most obvious things to your players are completely and totally lost on you. I call this "CoD Syndrome" while CoD Syndrome is a serious illness and for some (Like its namesake) it is far too late to turn back there is still hope for you Nadeo.

Before I begin I am a professional Level Designer with 5 years of experience and a BA in Game Development, I also have been modding games since 1998. (Not trying to say I know more than anyone at Nadeo, just that I do have some experience on the topic)

Lets get to it.
We can't remap controls in Turbo, why?! I can understand some things cant change because console rules but even other console ports of other games have re-mappable controls. No excuse.

Problem 1: Editor woes.
The Turbo editor is cancer on ALL platforms and has only gotten worse since TMU in general. Correction: its still pretty bad and some normal pieces are missing from the new editor but if you revert to classic (linked below) its the same as TM2 but still has some issues.(although Media-tracker was better in TM2). Other games on OLDER CONSOLES, have done this way way better (see Time Splitters Future Perfect). Why can't I hold a button and drag to place things in a line? Why can't certain things be connected like pillars or lights? Why did you take away the 1high 1wide black wall in Turbo? In controller mode, Why can't I import stadium maps even if I'm going to have to clean them up a bit in Turbo? What happened to the Grid view setting? In controller mode Why when using multi monitors on TM2/TMT (but not TMU oddly) does dragging to the edge of the screen lose focus (sometimes)? Why on TMT and TM2 but not on TMU does the focus constantly snap back to the mouse when using arrow keys to place things, I have literally flipped my mouse over and set it on another desk and it will STILL randomly snap back. I unplugged my mouse completely AND IT STILL SNAPS BACK (on TM2). Why can't we have 1 way turbos anymore (TMT)? They were good functional brakes on some maps. They were fundamental in RPG maps.

Fix: Editor Woes
Make a track piece browser window that shows all track pieces in a large thumbnail list (not the silly folder thing like in TM2 or the Slider in TMU although even the slider was vastly superior to the wheels/folders of TMT/TMU), Allow us to turn off "Connect Mode" Bring back click/drag (or button/thumb-stick drag on console), You can't link blocks that you can find linked in other maps you made (like Lights) Add back Missing blocks from campaign mode, Add the 1x1 Black Wall (or equivalent so we can use it to prevent soooo many shortcuts). Fix the focus bug. Also pull back the edge of the stadium from the placement area like.... 1 block space... Trust me (not asking to make the play space bigger, just move the stadium away from it 1 block space). Although that being said being able to define larger level spaces would be nice.

Problem 2: Lack of Community Support
Don't get me wrong TrackMania Xchange, and ManiaXchacge are FANTASTIC. Same with Carpark. BUT you should have your own market and support for custom maps, cars, models, etc and it should be built into the game. And they kind of are in TMT but it leaves a lot to be desired. If your not going to let us use dedicated servers and server controllers (TMT) then you SHOULD implement your own records keeping. YOU MADE A TIME TRIALS GAME! Even LBP tracks performance on maps better than you and that's not even their "Thing". Also the bug TO THIS DAY in TM2 that makes you re-pick your car every time you load the game.

Problem 3: Servers
Okay so I am not going to talk too much about TMT since I am certain the limitations there are strictly to do with console network policy.

TMU Servers
Stop punishing TMU players for TMNF players. Why are we saddled with the burden of paying coppers to maintain freezone servers when freezone servers already have limitations placed on TMNF players. Further more why can't freezone just go away in favor of heavier restrictions on TMNF players period. Its crazy, the people actually paying for your game suffer more than those that don't.

TM2+TMU Servers
Why don't you have a system in place to allow servers to at the very least track local records, even just a basic top 10. Server controllers are great and most serious server hosts will use them anyway, but the average basic server should have SOME simple record tracking functionality for at least a local top 10 on each map.

NET CODE >.<
Your not even hosting the servers ffs. Let the server hosts determine how precise they want telemetry data distributed on their server to prevent all the wall clipping. Also once upon a time TMU was great, and even now its got tons of clipping issues. So something must have changed in a patch or my memory is just going bad.

Problem 3: Long Standing Graphical Issues - Light Bleed and Object Merging (TM2)
Somehow between TMU and TM2 all the objects in TM2 have like a 1 pixel gap between them that causes all kinds if flickering light bleed. This is super horrid on 4k, not that the game was designed for 4k... But even on 1080p theres single pixels of light bleed EVERYWHERE in TM2 Stadium. Also light bleeds through objects when compiling light maps and yet somehow in both TMU and TMT it does not. Now a lighting system revamp/transplant may be too expensive or too time consuming to do at this point... But its still really bad and should have been fixed before even launching the thing. Even a simple visual geometry munging system could have fixed this without impacting the game physics (unless the game is literally using the visual structure data as its collision map).

There are other more recent bugs with flickering water and aggressive dynamic range but those are recent bugs and this isn't a bug discussion as much as it is a development discussion so I won't go into those here (TM2)

I could go on with issues and problems but allow me to somewhat sum up what people want from you guys.

The future (not for TMT because console restrictions are likely in play)
What I feel would be best for you guys is... come out with a solid 2-3 modes that are fun, (Say Stadium, Lagoon, and Canyon) make a good strong PC editor, even if your going to have a basic console version, and support them into the future, add blocks over time this will keep things interesting and people playing/making maps, make your own in-game browsers to rank, play, and browse maps. Add basic local record keeping to your dedicated server (but don't get rid of server controllers in the process) Don't make the game modular chunks that need to be purchased separately. Give us some control over the netcode. Let us import maps from previous versions again. Make a ladder system that isn't just points collection. Make a ranked mode, maybe collect maps for a year then pick like a top 20 maps for the season each season, maybe carry over like... 5 each year. Get in on competitive gaming.

Edit, Removed FTP advice because it really deserves its own thread.
It now lives here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37814

[Scienceguy]

Actually, you can remap your entire controller on the Xbox one for any game.
the main problem with tmt I have is the price. Hylis said in another topic that this was more of a best of/discovery edition, which is why car customization (among other things)was removed. We did however get lagoon, but I personally don't like it. So why I'm I forced to to play it and get good at it, in order to unlock the next series for stadium?

Also for the car customization, it seems that was removed for Ubisoft so we would have something to spend those points on.
I just don't see why this is the most expensive TM game.

I also see a lot of support for the pc problems for this game, which is great, but I haven't seen much for the console edition.

[disposableaccount]

don't forget the stat boost p2w items, heard those sell pretty well

[Scienceguy]

If they start throwing micro transactions at us I'll be done with nadeo completely. I know they are a business and not a charity, but still. That's why I don't play trials fusion anymore.

Speaking of trials fusion, they do have a great way to search and play custom tracks. I think something like that would be great for tmt.

[Miss]

My take on this post. Hi! I've also been in the game development industry since about 2011/2012. Good to see more gamedev people on the community.

So, as for TMT, the aim was to have it on consoles (see this post) and - to not have the PC be left out - provide the PC market with the game as well. I think that goal has been reached; Trackmania is actually becoming popular on consoles, and that's really cool.

Regarding TMU, I honestly couldn't say much about the complaints there, I haven't played TMU in years. "Paying coppers for freezone servers" sounds like it was a good idea in the past, but maybe not anymore today if there aren't that many players anymore. But like I said I don't know too much about that.

For Maniaplanet, you have some valid bug reports. Honestly I believe Nadeo really is listening to feedback there, but have been too busy on Turbo the past year to really put some time into fixing any of it. Hopefully we'll see more things in the coming months.

Local records on every server isn't a bad idea in general, though I wouldn't see this as a game-breaking issue, but just a good suggestion. Most experienced (competitive, I guess) players tend to just play on servers that have server controllers, and most new players (casual players mostly, I guess) don't care too much about that kind of stuff (eg. they often just make in-game servers and drive Nadeo maps with their friends).

Net code, well, it really is not that bad if you have a few cars driving in a server. If you have a lot, it becomes a little more visible. I think that the dedicated server also has some network tweaking settings. (Re: Maniaplanet, I'm not sure about TMU.)

Not sure what you're talking about with the 1 pixel gap? Are you talking about the block bugs (that have been fixed in TMT)? I play TM2 on a 4k screen exclusively, and it looks amazing (oh god, try the HD textures option, it's beautiful). Also, TMT is Maniaplanet. This means that in Maniaplanet 4, all the bugfixes and features that we see in TMT will also be available in MP4. Good thing to keep in mind. (Also, water in TMT on 4k is beautiful! )

Nadeo working together with ESL (or similar) on competitions is always good. I think this is also what is kind of happening already (eg. Gamer's Assembly).

[disposableaccount]

i wouldn't mind if turbo had dlc actually. like another campaign, different cars and alternate look for the environments. if they make an environment mix dlc i'll buy it in a heartbeat

[Naveronasis_TM2]

So, as for TMT, the aim was to have it on consoles.

Which is why I didn't call it out for not having a dedicated server in the first place. I suppose the only area that I did request a feature that would be extra was in the area of an editor but since its still basically running on the same engine... I would think that to be not so hard. I mean at least give the PC an editor that isn't made for a controller.

Ill upload some screenshots of the pixel gap bug.

[Miss]

The PC version does have an editor that's not made for a controller.

[Naveronasis_TM2]

http://naveronasis.com/pixel%20bug.png

The image is quite large and depicts a worst case scenario.

[Naveronasis_TM2]

The PC version does have an editor that's not made for a controller.

This changes everything

Ill go use it some right now and see what I think.... Right after I make a new post about a ton of graphics bugs in TM2 for funzies .

Edit:
Done! here that is:
viewtopic.php?f=470&t=37819&p=267248#p267248