What makes a great level?

[Sython1]

Although I am new to these forums, I have been playing Track Mania 2 for quite awhile. I have been playing multiplayer and downloading levels and have seen several trends to what has been popular and what hasn't. To me, there are short levels that, although 20 sec long, are technical enough to be challenging; there are also levels meant to feel like an odyssey that makes the player only happy to finish without faulting; there are levels that are the almost impossible and the boringly easy, and so on. So what makes a good level then? I understand that everyone has different preferences to what they enjoy in a level, but what are things we can all agree on that makes a level great?

[Demented]

First off, Welcome!
I personally don't like short tracks under a minute or tracks that don't have a clearly defined route.
However, that aside, I think what makes a track good is;
Something unique that people will like and remember.
The challenge should be in getting a good time, not just finishing the track.
Avoid hidden traps and "Gotcha's"
The main key, I think, is that it is fun to play and not too frustrating.
Also, test your track many times and make as many changes as you need to keep it fluid.

[eyebo]

A question with many different answers, and it varies a lot depending on the track style you're building.

But in general, for me a great track/map/level is one that I want to play over and over and am motivated to beat my own time on, with diversity of ideas throughout the map to keep it interesting to play. Every turn should feel natural, like the car wants to go there before the track even appears. Directional signage and good looking scenery are also important, both of which can help lead the driver's eye through the course.

[ben3847]

Scenery.

[Sython1]

Thank you all for replying! Now here is another point I would like to bring up: Can a great level be difficult? What I have seen on multiple maps is the way the difficulty factor is raised is by chopping up the flow of the track, putting an obsticle in the middle of the line you may need to take in order to throw you off, and so on. What ballance is there between a hard level and a fun one?

[Demented]

I hope to see many replies here from many people because as Eyebo said, It's a question with many different answers. Everyone has different tastes. There isn't really a right or wrong answer here. Just opinions.
I agree also with Eyebo's statement that it should feel like the car want's to go there and I will change a corner or section many times to get it to feel that way.

What ballance is there between a hard level and a fun one?

I think a good track needs to be driven a few times to be learned but it shouldn't take so long to master that you smash your keyboard or controller in frustration. I mean after all it's suppose to be fun yes? Putting an obstacle in the driving line to force players to alter their flow can be good if it's not in a "blind" area with no warning. For example I've never been fond of a fast upslope with a hidden sharp turn at the top unless it can be used as a calculated risky shortcut to jump to another part of the track.
One thing I think is important with any track is to test run from every checkpoint. Nothing frustrates me more than resetting to a checkpoint that you cannot complete the track from. IE: a CP at the edge of a cliff or gap you have to jump over without an alternate route.
As I said I hope to see many opinions posted here. I'm curious to see what people like too. I know my trackbuilding style is a little "Old School" but then so am I and what the average driver likes might be quite different. I tend to like two or three lap tracks that run around 4 to 5 minutes with fast flowing sections and tighter technical sections and some sort of unique theme to them. Seems most players like the shorter 20 to 30 second runs though with a good challenge in it.

[745]

Personal taste. I like maps where I can finish in the first run without guide, with a lot of freedom of driving, like choosing between doing a corner tight or wider and the map still works fine both ways. Also, I think there are too many maps with too many woah moments, like a terrain transition every 1-2 seconds, they become tiresome very quickly. And too many top quality flow maps that "feel all same".

About difficulty, a flat map with nothing "Trackmania" can be very tough, some corners can puzzle for a while. Learning to do them on the edge take a long time, but if it's too frustrating, players may blame the map for being unflowy. A balance between challenge and yawn-flow need to be found.

[edk]

I guess it depends on how you define great. I think some define great as popular. Yet some popular tracks look like they took less than 5 minutes to make and validate. Meanwhile, some tracks that people spent many hours on will never get played. To complicate things more, some tracks with massive amounts of awards on TMX are hardly played and others with only 1 or 2 awards have been played tremendously over the years. So I guess that's saying something without saying anything. I'm confused!

In all seriousness, I would say first and foremost, make tracks you like to play yourself and put enough effort into it that you are satisified with it. That way, whatever the case, you will always be happy with it.

Another good avenue, and somewhere that I think most of the tracks could fall into the "great" category, would be the Monthly Track Contest at TMX. They have you build a track with a given set of rules (like build a track with only the same 10 blocks, or only build with slanted blocks, etc.) and then you do the best you can within those parameters. The community has made some outstanding tracks for this contest, just search TMX for "MTC" tracks and you will find some great tracks.

[Demented]

In all seriousness, I would say first and foremost, make tracks you like to play yourself and put enough effort into it that you are satisified with it. That way, whatever the case, you will always be happy with it.

Very well said. I totally agree.

[Sython1]

Thanks again everyone for replying with in depth feedback about this topic!!! For me, I like a real, no BS challenges in a level. I like levels that make me think about new ways of playing the game - new techniques, different lines (whether or not to take an outside or inside line to a corner), and different forms of level design I never thought of before as a level maker. I could really care less about scenery or speed in a level as long as it is thought provoking and is fun to drive. Also, I like levels closer to the 1-2 min mark rather than less than a minute because I find while playing longer maps, there are multiple challenges rather than one with maps under 1min. Lastly, I wonder about the way to popularize good levels.

I find it all to common on either the Steam Workshop or on the TM Exchange that most of the popular levels feel either too similar or have a "one hit wonder" trick in them that at first makes the player go "ooh that is cool" for two seconds before having the same trick happen again 28 more times in the level and making the same player think "OK get it now, where is the finish?" There are times when I download a fantastic track that obviously took someone a billion hours to make, only to find three people including the author ever downloaded it. There are exceptions to this trend, but I feel this is a sort of trend that can't be helped.

Thanks EDK for the MTC recommendation!