The Situation in ShootMania

[TMarc]

No, this is not the real reason.
Players are blaming Nadeo because of all the bugs that got introduced more and more, despite the new features.
And there were changes to the gameplay. Shootmania is not the same as it was in the beginning.
Hooks/grapples, teleporters, tech speed path, magnetic path, wood slides, bouncing walls, items, etc were introduced step by step.

Many changes with bugs or undesired changes led to the initial hyped players leave, or get incredibly mad.
New players came, and if they were not already warned and disappointed by the already existing criticism, they had to experience all that on their own.

Shootmania has lost quite some stability and fans.
On the other side, game modes and titles like speedball, obstacle and(don't remember the name, but instead of elimination one gets imprisoned until team mates rescue) became quite popular.

Shootmania won't get a huge lot of new players alone.
Nadeo needs to fix still many things, release one new attractive title like a new environment (the long expected cryo or a space station or Mars or Saturn moon or so), make official cup and tournament.
And only then (!) more players might stay in the Shootmania universe.
Still there is no guarantee that it would become "shiny" and reputable as you say.

[plopp]

To me, there are NO real problems. Its almost same game as 5 years ago, and there was no problems. Why we see problem?

Have you read the forum posts from 5 years ago? People were not happy then either.

I think the problem is not 1 thing. You seem to think that the player base is the whole problem. The way I see it there is a web of small problems that cause a bigger problem. Player drop is caused by one problem and then the player drop causes another problem and so on. You say the problem is that the player base is small, but why is it small? Why did the people leave a game with no problems?

Most people, who I have spoken to, left the game because nothing was happening. The part where you say that "The same game as 5 years ago" was the problem for them. Same bugs, same problems as 5 years ago. The people who are still in the game are the people that are somewhat fine with the game being as it is, then there are these new updates that introduce more bugs. Updates that introduce features that nobody in the current community asked for. This makes the people still in the game question who they're making the game for. I think this is why the irritation is escalating.

[mine3]

The stronger the game is doing, the more people will filter out and adapt to the stuff, and be happy what they play.

[chco]

Wouldn't be a bad thing if Shootmania was free for all for a while again.
I can name at least 10 people that would five it a try. The channels are ok, but to be honest, for me, 90% I don't play and I don't want to invite someone and then have to play a channel I don't like.
It's just a thought, nothing more.

[plopp]

The stronger the game is doing, the more people will filter out and adapt to the stuff, and be happy what they play.

Ofcourse a problem gets worse if there are more problems around it. The classic: Would you rather be rich and sad or poor and happy? Which is why when you are poor and sad you'd like at least one of those to change.

Also, the comparison makes very little sense between a game and an operating system. As well as the MS and Nadeo comparison. If 90% of windows' userbase would express a problem, Microsoft would sure as hell fix that problem. Unless Microsoft wants to go in a completely different direction than 90% of their current userbase wants. Then it'd be nice for them to say that so that 90% could start learning Linux.

[djhubertus]

Just like soprah said, all we need is Shootmania Turbo, focus on gameplay and make it accessible, put effort into tutorials/modes/ranked mm/cosmetics to unlock and UI. SM doesn't need mods, It needs to be crazy fun for casuals that want to squad with friends(Thanks royalsquad, this is very cool), and competitive for all arena fps lovers with balanced and unique gameplay that brings skill ceiling skyhigh so we can all say "Checkmate Quake!".

We don't need custom models, we don't need texture packs, we don't need titlepacks, tools, manialinks. Just a simple map editor and that's it.

[Florenzius]

Just like soprah said, all we need is Shootmania Turbo, focus on gameplay and make it accessible, put effort into tutorials/modes/ranked mm/cosmetics to unlock and UI. SM doesn't need mods, It needs to be crazy fun for casuals that want to squad with friends(Thanks royalsquad, this is very cool), and competitive for all arena fps lovers with balanced and unique gameplay that brings skill ceiling skyhigh so we can all say "Checkmate Quake!".

We don't need custom models, we don't need texture packs, we don't need titlepacks, tools, manialinks. Just a simple map editor and that's it.

totally agreed.

[TMarc]

The biggest confusion is of course: who are "we" exactly?

When individuals say "we want" or "we don't need" it is never a general saying, because there are always other people who prefer other things. So they can never speak for the entire community.

If you djhubertus only meant you an Soprah, it's fine, but you two alone might not get heard too much then.

I hope you get the point

[mine3]

This topic is 80% talking about bugs, updates, features, and things, I just want to say.

If Nadeo fixes all the bugs, makes new update, add's new feature and goes to sleep feeling good, and then we hear back from them year after, its not going to do anything to the "situation".

We've been there already. I mean, a bugfix, or update and then its all good? The situation will be exactly the same. Just like now. We will be playing the same game. Nothing has been done.

Ofcourse bugs should be fixed, no problem, but that dont do anything to the real situation. The discussion about fixing bugs should be very neutral, and not present like its the miracle and lets push Nadeo to focus on it.

The situation is 95% depended of player amount/SM scene. Only 5% will be fixed with another update, feature, or bug fix. We have seen these updates, features, fixes all these years and they havnt done anything to the "situation", because the situation is not there. The situation is completely in the userbase.

If Hylis separates TM and SM, what it does? I mean. Nothing. Whats the point with all that.
If they make update with new mode, what it means? Nothing.
Updates, bugs, fixes is just nonsense. It wont solve anything at this point.

First, the userbase needs to be big. When that is fixed, then you actually start to have benefit from the updates and features because theres users who look into that stuff.

You have broken tire, but you buy a new steering wheel. You still have broken tire, but you buy new seat.
I mean, All these discussions, there needs to be tutorials, ranks. OK, they make tutorial, they make better ranking system, but what did it do to the situation? Nothing.

The problem is not there.

.

.. They were able to keep 80% more players with MP3 free system.

[TMarc]

The title pack stuff is actually what makes Maniaplanet Maniaplanet, and not just Trackmania, and not just Shootmania.
It has unleashed creative possibilities to many players and they have created things which even Nadeo did not think of.
The new mesh editor allows even more.

You have to see it like this:
Nadeo proposes the base game as entry point. And on this I agree, it should be almost bug-free, otherwise it frustrates the players too much.
And then the customization can start.
It has all started with Trackmania with the possibility to create own tracks, with this very special track editor.
And the dream is to have a game engine with customization but still the ease of track / map / level creation.
Perhaps Maniaplanet is already too complicated at some places, which might be frightening the new players as well.
If you consider Maniaplanet as an experimental universe, then it is rather fine as it is. You have to consider the whole development btw.
So, Maniaplanet is the base for own game creations. Still some functions are missing, like NPC, verhicles, animals, much more dynamic and interactive blocs, and the possibility for completely different game types than what we know now at present.

But it is not because Nadeo has only one or a few official titles, that the whole player community has to restrict on that. Why?
Nadeo relies a lot on the community, e.g. for servers. So why not also for new game modes?
Nadeo has done lot of stuff already, and they could have done more offical titles, but they left it to the community to create such, and also to decide.
They are rather working on the tools they are integrating in Maniaplanet, and to make good tools takes a huge lot of time.

If there are enough players, each mode or title finds own fans, it is only a matter of preference.
But it is not from now until tomorrow that the player base will grow incredibly and make this or that title suddenly more popular.
It takes time.
And it takes more time than every individual player thinks it should take "for a bit" of Software, but this is quite normal that big projects take long.
Nadeo can do great stuff, if they don't have to argue and constantly change their direction all the time.
And I think it is exactly what had happened with Shootmania in the past.
In the hurry to make it popular, they wanted to please to too many players at once, but could not never finish every new requirement properly.
The "community" has asked for too much in a rather chaotic way, and this was kind of the result: a chaotic game, a chaotic community, where some found niches with the stuff that was working for their own needs.

We have seen it with Trackmania Turbo: it is a great game as such, fancy and funny. It was a good surprise on one side.
But the hype that was there in the beginning has decreased much faster than one could think of, at least on PC.
Players who have experienced past Trackmania games were rather upset that it was that much separated (e.g. no common ladder, a different and unusual editor), and also that not everyone would automatically get Lagoon on PC only because they had already purchased all or some of the previous titles already.
And it was even more difficult to drive Rollercoaster Lagoon than any previous environment. Not really good for fresh starters to get good times there.
For consoles it is apparently still quite popular, since Nadeo and Ubisoft seems to be quite happy about the sales of all their games.

The question is what would help Nadeo to create better games?
One thing is sure, they need constructive feedback, the more precise, the better.

Nadeo has to think very well what they want to do, but also the community has to think.
How should a Shootmania "nextgen" look like?
What can be kept, what should be dropped?