New League?

[mzhh]

- Dead space (only a small portion of the map actually being played on) (Examples: Daybreak, Cloudlight, Dawnville, TheCastle)
- Wasting attackers time by forcing him to run for a long time and waste all his stamina before he can even see or shoot at defenders (Examples: Daybreak & Cloudlight. Taking away 15-20 seconds of the attackers time before he can even challenge the defence is too much, that's 25-35% of his total attacking time. Think about that number for a second)
- Poor timings out from def/att spawn, forcing defenders to play far back because they can't reach certain areas before attacker (Cloudlight is perfect example of this. Dawnville as well to a certain degree)
- No feasible way of playing aggressive out on the map and then slowly rotating back towards pole as capture approaches (Examples: Cloudlight, Daybreak, TheCastle, Rust to a certain degree)
- Lots of chokepoints in towards pole (Example: Cloudlight, Dawnville)
- Poorly placed poles (Example: Daybreak. In a corner with no way of escaping once you reach it)
- Poorly designed areas around pole making it possible for defence to play 3 people near and around pole the entire map (again, leaving only 10% of the map actually being used. Examples: Daybreak, Cloudlight, Dawnville v3, TheCastle)
- Extremely static defence playing 3 same positions entire map through with no rotations whatsoever (Examples: Ironfist, Daybreak, Cloudlight, Dawnville)
- Possible to get on top of the map and gaining a severe heightadvantage from a safe place vs defenders (Examples: Dawnville)

dunno if this is the right 3d, but anyway i totally support what has been said on this post ^.

Dawnville is a totally failmap, but removing all the walls around the pole maybe can fix it :/

Btw i thinhk Poles should be more in open spaces

jm2c

[dovahk1n]

Interesting. Only few high teams in ESL series, but if there is a good prize for this league, it will bring more top teams for sure.
But if its going to be a different map pool from the current official one, i won't participate in.
It's quite boring to have cups and leagues with differents map pool. And guys which are complaining about the new mappack are just guys which can't adapt themselves in a new environnement. I've played a lot on the new maps, at the beginning it was really hard, but after few hours of pratice, u started to know how to atk and defend, how to preshot, how to move,... U just need enough skill for that =)

[PapyChampy]

Interesting. Only few high teams in ESL series, but if there is a good prize for this league, it will bring more top teams for sure.
But if its going to be a different map pool from the current official one, i won't participate in.
It's quite boring to have cups and leagues with differents map pool. And guys which are complaining about the new mappack are just guys which can't adapt themselves in a new environnement. I've played a lot on the new maps, at the beginning it was really hard, but after few hours of pratice, u started to know how to atk and defend, how to preshot, how to move,... U just need enough skill for that =)

This is a way to see things. In my opinion, there are still some flaws, and it's not all about skill and practice on the maps.

The maps of this new mappack, for instance, are not very good looking and offer some issues with spectating.
Those two points should not get overlooked by mappers for competitive maps.

[MattjA]

As all games go, it takes time.

The ideal at the moment is getting people to play competitively and by that introducing the league structure as well as ESL have done, there aren't many people playing it. Opening up CyberGamer would give a variety of leagues and cups to play so people don't have to stick to playing IRC matches all the time. The time for real 'official' results to come in so they have something to show for their time in the game.

As maps are concerned, this is going to be a controversial subject for however long the game goes on for, (hopefully a long time) but mappers should map with the issues that are raised, and if its not right.. it just takes a few focus groups to get the ball rolling.

What we really need is suppose throughout the 'pre-new league' stage to show that there is support for it and people actually want to play the game competitively. With gamers support, only great things can happen.

[sadzealot]

And guys which are complaining about the new mappack are just guys which can't adapt themselves in a new environnement. I've played a lot on the new maps, at the beginning it was really hard, but after few hours of pratice, u started to know how to atk and defend, how to preshot, how to move,... U just need enough skill for that =)

Bad arguments. And in case you haven't been listening, this isn't about taking time to learn the maps, which is what you're saying. This is about the maps being broken and making for terrible terrible gameplay and even worse for spectators. We've actually played pcw's on the new maps (I mean, we had to try them despite the flaws we saw in them) and guess what? Our worst fears were confirmed. Do you have like a gentlemansrule not going on top of Dawnville? Beucase if it's a league, with prizes involved, people will play to win and they will go on top of that map. Every bloody round.

Why? Becuase it offers total mapcontrol for the attacker. (And we're on version 3 of Dawnville. I actually played version 1 of it sometime around january and pointed out you could get on top of the map already back then. He fixed the place I pointed out then, but not the current one being used)

Also, I don't like having 45 second attackrounds on Cloudlight when the way up to the pole is filled with chokepoints and all 3 defenders play on the highground. My god, it's like Solar Flare all over again.

So sorry, but your post is either an excellent troll or pure ignorance.

Also, think about the gameplay when 200 teams play the excact same defence camping around the pole. Think about the spectator-value of such gameplay.

It will be the funeral of Elite faster than you think.

[Fix]

Sadzealot, your post is usefull in a way (I think), you give mappers informations on how to improve elite maps. Creating maps and playing them is different. In trackmania you can drive your track and see the problems yourself. In shootmania it is a lot harder, so the players need to share theri experience and help the mappers.
It's hard to do both : being a good mapper and a good player.

Maybe try to write down some of your thoughts into a nice informative and educational post/debate. I'm sure you and a lot of Elite players have tons of things to say, which situations you like, and wich you dislike.
I see a lot of complaints like "we don't have a lot of good elite maps", and I don't see any "how to make a good elite map or how to avoid making a bad elite map".

Some of your points could be discussed and refined : attacker losing a lot of time before the fight starts: I think the counterpart is that it can give time to defenders to reach spots. It's not totally bad in all cases.
Here, the positive way would be : how make a long start interesting instead of don't make a long start), other wise you'll end up with all maps obeying the same rules and looking the same.

Anyway, I'm not going to enter this debate here, I haven't played Elite enough.
I wanted to point that sometimes you use the wrong words and can offense.
This not really aimed at you specially, it's a more an example than an accusation.

Actually, if they sucked then they still suck

That however, doesn't mean I can't recognize maps that are poorly designed, are boring to both play and spectate.

Those are generic judgements that touch the creator, neglecting the positive parts of the maps. It's like saying this guy is ugly, and the only thing you have against him is that he has an big nose.

- Poorly designed areas around pole making it possible for defence to play 3 people near and around pole the entire map (again, leaving only 10% of the map actually being used. Examples: Daybreak, Cloudlight, Dawnville v3, TheCastle)

This is also generic, not very informative. I think the offense is useless.

- Extremely static defence playing 3 same positions entire map through with no rotations whatsoever (Examples: Ironfist, Daybreak, Cloudlight, Dawnville)

This is a fact, a neutral statement of the gameplay situation that enables the creator to improve without feeling like "shit".

And I'm looking forward the level design courses

[haV]

Maps! - Everyone has had a valid point on this topic, My question is. Do we work on all new maps for CG or mix both IPL/ESL maps?

New maps will have to made anyways, as not everyone agrees on the current IPL/ESl map pool. So are people willing to work on maps that could be used in CG?

I could set up a server for all the maps to be tested on and that way, people can get a feel for them?

[PapyChampy]

Echoing Fix's post : A thing that I could do is creating a tutorial for mapping in Elite, or building some additional maps that are not Nadeo ones.

Only drawback is that crafting a good tutorial takes some time.

[haV]

Echoing Fix's post : A thing that I could do is creating a tutorial for mapping in Elite, or building some additional maps that are not Nadeo ones.

Only drawback is that crafting a good tutorial takes some time.

If that is at all possible then that could be great! Would help a lot of people out am sure when it comes to making maps. Oc that's if you wish to use you're own time to supply a helpful tutorial for people?

[PapyChampy]

Of course I wish to. It can't harm the game in any way.

Building a good map is like solving an equation : Using the right blocks at the right place. There are so many blocks and blocks combinations in Storm that it's not as easy as it seems when you open the editor.