Ruining the game before it's even released

[Toubib]

First of all, i don't want to debate about the "You can not see TM as a whole universe, you moron? Stop complaining!!". I love all the time I spent on TM since years and I still like it. And I also love Canyon. And I'm NOT going to complain, OK? Oh, and I'm grateful of Nadeo for all this years of pleasure. I'm just thinking about what is currently happening (the original question is: "why too much servers?").

Now..

Reading this thread helped me to realize something... I'm maybe wrong and it's only just my 2 cents, but it could be one reason. Or I'm just mad, but I also noticed the insane number of current servers, which remember me the current state of TMNF/TMUF.

I think that the main questions are:
- Why there is so much server, most of them empty?
- Why there is always a lot of players on server with very small interest, did they fully understood the game, or it is on my side?
- Why are people playing that kind of server, with random/lol maps, or only fullspeed maps, or anything else that a "classical" race player seems to dislike?

(let me finish before starting stoning)

I think that it is mostly for one reason: Win easily ladder points and increase the ladder ranks of the player, without thinking too much about racing and not too much effort ("OMG I WON 896.29 LP!!!"). Actually, I feel like most of players are playing to win points, not to win races. (I can see from here an army of guys screaming about my low skill, that I don't know the community nor the game, that it's not always races, bla bla... )

Ok, I agree, a lot of players like lolmaps and fullspeed maps because they are fun, and they are! But you can't argue about the fact that the final ranking on every map will be most of the time:
- Very close (for fullspeed or very short maps, it's common to see 15-20-30 players in the same second)
or/and
- Totally/partially random (for lolmaps, there is skill, but often luck, right?).

It means one essential thing : winning points for everybody. This is the actual ladder system that causes that effect. Because it's easy to win and increase our points, a lot of servers will be created, because it's easy to win points on them, and because every body want to have people on their servers. ("I have a lot of player on it, I'm so happy!")

I'm an old player on TM and I knew all the different systems over the years (from 2003 till today; no ladder, ladder "activated" in official mode, forced ladder, ...). But regarding all the existing systems, I strongly believe that the most fair and competitive one was the one with negative ladder points (yeah... "every body official", I remember...). The main argument is maybe this one: with such a system, what server will exist today?

I believe that most of "lolmaps servers" and probably a lot of "fullspeed servers" or "very short servers" would simply not exist. Or, more precisely they would exist but with ladder deactivated (for the "tiny" servers) or with maps of quality (for well managed servers), which means ultimately a lot less of non-sens server. It will also force administrators of servers to think about the map that are currently present on their server.

However, negative points doesn't mean losing points all the time when making little mistakes, but it means that losing against very lower player will cause you penalty, which is logical.

The fact is that negative points would kill the envy of anyone who "loves" his (high) rank to risk loosing points on random maps, and force them to race only where the race is fair. Or accept playing for fun if you like, with no ladder points. I deeply know that TM is not only a racing game, but the ladder only means something for racing. "This guy has an high rank, then he IS actually good and MAYBE better than me. I can try to beat him, forcing him to lose points and making me win some". It's challenging. To rank players, you need a ladder. To have a same basis of ladder, you have to know the common rule of every player. This common rule is, and always will be racing on TM.

So, to conclude this already too long text: I believe that what we are currently seeing (the explosion of number of servers, with a lot of them without any interest) is mostly caused by the actual ladder system, as a side effect. I know that the actual system has been created to avoid frustration and it is a really valuable system. But I strongly believe that without changing its behavior, we will always have that huge list of servers. And we definitely can't do anything against it.

Just my 2 cents. Prepare your stones.

Toub

_____________________


EDIT: Yeah, header of second page!... Now I'm wondering what will happen when we will actually be able to design our own game mode with maniascript. Maybe THIS will have great effect on the servers too.

EDIT2: And please, Trackmaniack, can't you split your answers in paragraphs? It looks always most aggressive that way, A full wall of text..

EDIT3: Maybe I should have post it somewhere else...

[TStarGermany]

I can't believe you all are so ungrateful.

You got it wrong, believe me.

Isn't there anybody other than me that -is- happy with what we have here? I think you all really need to watch Purification's Video again to see what the potential of Trackmania Canyon is. Have you noticed that there are actually -different- types of blocks?

That's PRECISELY my point. TM2 has LOTS of potential, but not only do the authors and server ops NOT use it, they already started to poison peoples' taste by spamming them with the "same old stuff". It's this automation of "dumbing down" that I witness and despise.

But there's a right way and a wrong way to go about bringing them to the dev team's attention. The way that I've seen most often here in the forums is "OMG Canyon sux it was a waste of my monies Nando feex it nao", without so much as even a please attached to the end.

This has got nothing to do with the game itself, but with the community. And I don't think my post does contain overly unrespectful stuff (especially not towards Nadeo/Ubi), but I also understand that it takes some -clear- words to make people understand what you really mean.

Don't worry TStar, map quality will improve as you get around to making some Canyon tracks. I'd be more than happy to host a server with just your tracks!

A nice thing to say, but that won't happen. My decision is very firm : I will not touch the editor again until something very profound has changed within the community.

I think that the main questions are:
- Why there is so much server, most of them empty?
- Why there is always a lot of players on server with very small interest, did they fully understood the game, or it is on my side?
- Why are people playing that kind of server, with random/lol maps, or only fullspeed maps, or anything else that a "classical" race player seems to dislike?

Thank you. So I'm not hallucinating, you can see it, too ^^

EDIT: Yeah, header of second page!... Now I'm wondering what will happen when we will actually be able to design our own game mode with maniascript. Maybe THIS will have great effect on the servers too.

Let's wait and hope. Lots is ahead and we will surely discover everything possible.

[Trackmaniack]

My post wasn't entirely directed at you, TStar, and, admittely, maybe it shouldn't have gone in your thread. You're a well-respected member of the community and you always have valuable things to say. What really irks me is that people aren't really even giving Canyon a chance before they start bashing it. I'm far from being a top-times, nolifer player. But I still know what I like and don't like in Trackmania. Example. I like Bay, Stadium, Island, and others. I don't like Rally and Alpine. But I also like Canyon. It just -feels- like a Trackmania title. Yes, there are some of the same things re-used, but maybe I'm more forgiving of that or something, I dunno. Maybe it's because since I saw the first footage, I've been viewing Canyon as Desert 2.0 and thus, some recycling is forgivable. But I at least figure, let the game get -released- for a few months before starting to bash it. And further, Trackmania hasn't ever been released, retail, as a single environment. This is a first for Nadeo. So, what I say is, wait until Valley, Storm, and QM 1 come out to get a greater picture of Maniaplanet as a whole to see where they're going with the interconnectivity, and I'm sure we'll have nothing but positive thoughts then. Also, don't forget, Nadeo only recently was transitioned to Ubisoft. It's like a move for anybody else--there's a rough time in there for a while--Nadeo's bound to hit a few bumps here and there--but Canyon is still 100% awesomesauce. At least for me.

[janculits]

ladder that makes you lose points would actually make sense - if you are not a "pro" and play for fun, you wouldn't care about your rank much anyways... But if you play for rank - prepare yourself to a though fight Such a ladder would also show skill rather than time spent online But my guess is that it is way too late for this now anyways

[EnaiSiaion]

It appears a lot of people started a server on day one and populated it by downloading every single track off MX - which means a lot of bad maps interspersed with high quality beta 2 maps. As a result, every server has the same tracks, most of them are bad, and there appear to be only a few viable maps.

You actually can make unusual track types. How about very low speed drift tech using lots of 1x1 GP blocks? How about long rally tracks made entirely out of roadmain and cliffside blocks? But they never appear online because players seem to prefer simple GP speed drift - at least that was what I was told when I submitted a tech track to a server once. "Tech is too hard".

[fng_thatoneguy]

Lots of things to say here... all related, but might feel somewhat random because I don't know how to put them together well... here goes nothing:

1. How the game has been received up to this point:
I have only been a part of the beta since phase 2, but everything I've seen from the testers I've raced with is a whole lot of positive energy and excitement for the coolness Canyon is bringing. I've only started to hear negativity from people over the last couple of days, which is to be expected, since there's a crapload more people in the beta now than there were when I first joined.

I will agree with whoever said many of the "nay-sayers" aren't giving it much of a chance before going off (not going to name names because I didn't pay attention enough to remember them.) They're not bad people, they've just formed a very early opinion and that's their right. It's also their loss if they drop it without giving it more of a chance, but again, that's their right.

2. Re-use of old code:
One huge halle-freaking-lujah shout out to NADEO for being able to reuse that majority of the underlying code from a fantastic game engine. It's a tribute to how well designed/organized their code was written to begin with, which speaks volumes about the developer talent at their little studio there. Again, I shout many KUDOS!!!

Now that said, let me be very clear that I have not said the code is perfect. The developers at NADEO are as human as the rest of us that share the same careers... anyone that writes code, I don't care how good you are, are going to write software with bugs in it. The trick is to minimize the impact and visibility of them to ensure a good experience for the user.

I will say that, while some of the defects in TMUF/TM2's re-used code is visible... we have to remember a few things...
a. Defects have to be prioritized and while NADEO had to go through ladder logic changes mid-stream with Nations/United from "boosters" in the past and the fact that they do some caching on the client of ladder scores -- opportunity for "out-of-sync" and other issues are there and apparent.
b. I have to assume NADEO has determined some of these defects to be lower priority since they don't keep you from having a good gaming experience while actually playing the game or creating tracks in the editor, etc.
c. We are still in Beta, and they're busting butt to get the defects fixed; and I'm sure that includes old defects they probably wanted to get to with Nations/United, but are only now getting the opportunity to address them, because they still have to feed their families and that means making the shareholders happy, which means their priority was developing the new game.

Now, let me return to my shouts of kudos... why did I do this? Because for we TrackManiacs that have been with the series for a long time... it's welcomed to not have to go through a huge new learning curve when jumping into this new game. To me this feels like my 8th United environment... an 8th environment that happens to look significantly better than its predecessors.

However, this doesn't negate the other environments value... I'll still playing the other 7 as they still bring me much enjoyment as well. Others don't have to do the same... your loss (subjectively speaking.)

3. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we can't get along.
Bring on the opposing opinions, everyone! That's what forums are for... just remember to treat each other with respect when doing so... it's annoying to read through a well-written post, then 3-4 argumentative/flame posts to get to the next well-written one.

I have to imagine we can all agree that NADEO has done a kick-butt job getting TM2 where it currently is... it's still got bugs, and that's ok... cause they're working on them, and we're all hoping for a solid release when that time comes.

4. All that aside... this environment might not be for everyone
Others have already mentioned that there are other prior TM environments that they don't enjoy. That's ok... don't enjoy it if you don't want to, that's your right. It doesn't mean the environment needs to be trashed on -- constructive criticism is fine; but be careful about crossing the fine line of constructive criticism and flaming -- just because one (or many) may not enjoy an environment, there is one (or many) that will, which means NADEO has also done a bang-up job at giving something for everyone.

That said, I love Canyon. There are little nuances I'm still deciding if I like/dislike (like wallrides/loops feeling like regular road driving with easy drifting (sometimes too easy!)) -- but I realize that I can't expect the same enviros we had in TMUF and its predecessors... if it were the same, there would be no reason for a new environment.

I will say this... I've been playing the game for over 2 weeks now, and I'm driving TONS better than when I first started, and am enjoying it more and more as I get the hang of it. I hope others that were quick to criticize will give it enough of a chance to get over the learning curve so they might also enjoy. If not, that's fine too... again, your loss (subjectively speaking.) -- I'll see you when I'm revisiting TMUF!

5. Beta or Release?!
I think some have misinterpreted the "Buy the pre-order, get into the multiplayer beta" and thought they purchased the released game. One of my own team thought this until I reminded him it's a beta today in an email.

I wonder how many are having quick angry reactions because they make the same mistake? Just a thought...

6. Last thing, I promise... Servers:
Don't be too quick to judge servers... remember that every aspect of multiplayer is being tested right now, including those that want to run servers (I'm one of them) -- We're all making sure we understand how to set up our servers and whatever management/plugin systems we'll use to run/maintain our servers. This includes things like: ManiaLive, MLEPP, Fox Control and, in my case, my own home-grown Tournament scoring app that I'm trying to work my own defects out for.

Others are in mad dashes fixing their stuff (I'm watching tons of activity on MLEPP as I await some changes they're making... thanks guys!) so expect even more of what you won't like from the servers... like randomly dropping because the admin needs to make changes and start it over. Or some weird UI popping up on your screen and potentially staying there because the plugin is still buggy too.

All of it is in beta right now (and some of it may still be when the game itself is released.) Please remember that these are the conditions and all is fair-game during a beta test. With that, please be a little more hesitant to be so critical and you'll probably have a better experience. If that's not good enough, then maybe those types should hold of til release date or even a month after to download and play so they can have the game they're expecting.

GG! Carry on, and we'll see you at the races...
(You'll see me falling off a loop!)

[.dejavu]

Common tstar.. i get your point and i agree, but how can you already say that after one week from the relase?

let the game evolve, as the comunity evolve.

Back on tmn-eswc, people started with weird map, and then evolved to tech/fs. Now with canyon, the comunity started from his basics: tech and fs, a mapping style that everybody knows. But everything is still to discover, in one year maybe everything can change.

Don't start with such discussions just after one week from the relase. Im sure new styles will come, as the comunity will evolve for sure. Of course the devlopping team, must help the comunity and the game, with periodic updates of blocks or maybe features.

[TStarGermany]

Common tstar.. i get your point and i agree, but how can you already say that after one week from the relase?

You're missing the point. I'm not making a blind guess towards the future. Right now, I can clearly see how the old structures are trying to hijack a new game, with increasing speed i may say.

Go online and tell me it isn't so. Tell me, you don't see the same old server structures, the same old distinctions between "speed" and "tech" and "lol" and "rpg", with the same kind of mediocre automated choice of (t)mx awarded tracks and driving zombies who flee from anything unusual as zombies do flee from the light of a torch.

This destructive behaviour has to be tackled as early as possible ! Why ? Easy answer : Because TMN+TMU have magnificiently shown us where this road leads to : A gridlock. All hands tied, no way out.

If I can do anything against this, I will and so should you.

[.dejavu]

Well, i try to explain on other words.

People still have to discover new mapping styles, people still doesn't know how the game evolve.
So people just promote what they did in the passt years, they host a server with the maps that people AWARD, because there's nothing else that can tell the real fun of a map.
How can people know what is a good map? Is there another way except awards, to see if a map is good?
There isn't another rating sistem. So people looks at the awards as the only rating sistem avaible.

Atm, on mx there are 1300 tracks, so you can't make a division between styles... Yes there are some lols, some techs, some fullspeeders, some normals, and some (less) rpg maps.

Is early to make a division of server by map style. In some months, there will be a lot of maps, with different styles, and at that moment, servers will start to be more specific, with only a specific mapping style inside.


So, imo we/you, just have to wait.

[simon.si]

Sometimes, the scales just fall from your eyes and that just happened to me 5 minutes ago while browsing the server list : Everything is just as bad as in TMN/TMU, all the bad old habits have been brought to the game, TM2 is about to be ruined before it's even released.

48 pages of servers, that's over 500, 70% of them empty or close to it (that's certainly gonna rise to 90% later on), 90% of them listing the same useless b*llshit transition tracks from the MX awards lists, little 30-40sec canapes for the mindless driver, people fleeing in hordes from the server if something doesn't fit that scheme or takes them 5 seconds more to comprehend. And all of that even before the game is officially released. That makes me sad.

Somehow, I feel like walking a street, looking for a restaurant, but all I can find are McDonalds after McDonalds, corner after corner, uniformity of the disgusting kind which ultimately ruins the taste of the masses.

I had hoped so much that this would've died with TMN/TMU, that things could've changed with TM2, a newer, a better community of trackmakers, server operators, users ... the reality of it makes me feel like an idiot.
Well, at least this time they have to pay for it. That's something, not much, but something.

-
This was my very own full blown rant, I needed to say this. Berate it, ridicule it, ignore it, do what you like.

Hey TStar i know you are a big part of this community but when we are already talikng about trackmaking would you be so nice and try my 3rd track that i made

Edit by modo : Stop posting on all topics, your track. Make one topic with your map and not just a link whereas your topic will be deleted.