Debate on TM² Canyon in eSport

[iceman23]

i believe it fits perfectly as if it wasn't for TMN this cup wouldn't have happened at all. and this topic is a perfectly reasonable place to express opinions or discuss those things. as i said, if you don't like what i say then that's fine, but don't try to downgrade what i write by saying it doesn't belong here or that i'm "trolling", THAT'S what i call useless. instead come with counter-arguments if you have any.

I'm sorry but that's a load of BS. This is in no way an acceptable avenue to discuss your personal opinions on the TMN/TM2 debate. First of all, you discredit and take away attention from the purpose of the thread - A TM2 TOURNAMENT. I'm sorry you didn't have a say in what game was played, but that decision was already made. Your personal opinions on TMN have NO RELEVANCE - the tournament isn't on tmn, nor will it be. Spin it and try to stretch it the way you want, but that's the truth. Go create a thread in the proper forum to discuss your agenda if you wish, but leave it out of completely innocuous posts clearly having nothing to do with this debate. For all your talk about strengthening your notion of esports you seem to have conjured up, your actions are completely detrimental to the success of either game - you take attention away from the tournament and focus it on your agenda (you've clearly succeeded at that), and tarnish the actual cause you're promoting in the process.
You come back saying people should reply with actual arguments rather than accusation of trolling, yet your supposed "argument" was coming into the thread saying two words, "wrong game". Now either you admit that's your actual argument (I would hope not, a 5 year old could create a more logically concrete statement), or you said that simply to illicit a reaction. Which one is it?

A high profile character in any sport must uphold a high level a responsibility; you should seriously think about what image you're portraying of yourself and of the game.

[FrostBeule]

I'm sorry but that's a load of BS. This is in no way an acceptable avenue to discuss your personal opinions on the TMN/TM2 debate.

perhaps im a bit more liberal about forum posting as i really don't see the point in making a new topic to reply to something that's connected to the subject. i honestly don't see how what i wrote didn't fit in that topic, but hey maybe that's just me.

the tournament isn't on tmn, nor will it be.

don't be too early in saying that it won't be in TMN, i heard it through the grape-wine that the admin for the cup have asked zotac if it's possible to make both a TM2 and TMN tournament each week. hopefully zotac will be smart and accept that MUCH better solution (albeit not perfect).

For all your talk about strengthening your notion of esports you seem to have conjured up, your actions are completely detrimental to the success of either game - you take attention away from the tournament and focus it on your agenda (you've clearly succeeded at that), and tarnish the actual cause you're promoting in the process.

i disagree, i think my actions of strongly going against TM2 is exactly what is needed. the sooner Nadeo realizes their mistake the better and i think if someone like i so publically go against TM2 that shows people that they don't have to follow what Nadeo says and can continue to play TMN as an esport. and as ive said, i think TMN is going better than ever right now. so i don't see how me going against TM2 hurts TMN in anyway, it's the opposite.

You come back saying people should reply with actual arguments rather than accusation of trolling, yet your supposed "argument" was coming into the thread saying two words, "wrong game". Now either you admit that's your actual argument (I would hope not, a 5 year old could create a more logically concrete statement), or you said that simply to illicit a reaction. Which one is it?

did you miss my posts after that? sure perhaps i have a tendency to provoke people, but i always follow it up with real arguments. im not saying im perfect though, i certainly can improve my debating skills. this subject though makes me very angry and frustrated, and it's been going on since 2008 so i tend to slip on the keyboard sometimes. but it's not like im spitting out illogical BS like you put it.

[tcq]

I'm sorry but that's a load of BS. This is in no way an acceptable avenue to discuss your personal opinions on the TMN/TM2 debate.

perhaps im a bit more liberal about forum posting as i really don't see the point in making a new topic to reply to something that's connected to the subject. i honestly don't see how what i wrote didn't fit in that topic, but hey maybe that's just me.

Yeah, that's only you. Glad that you see it.

the tournament isn't on tmn, nor will it be.

don't be too early in saying that it won't be in TMN, i heard it through the grape-wine that the admin for the cup have asked zotac if it's possible to make both a TM2 and TMN tournament each week. hopefully zotac will be smart and accept that MUCH better solution (albeit not perfect).]

Don't see a problem with it (if it's for TM2 and TMN). But still i don't see why this should be a much better solution? And here we go again with hylis quote I still don't belive it, but it fits perfect to all of your statements, therefore i can't bring it up, often enough.

But there are many points I should overcome first, and the players attitude here, is the worse they can do for this to happen. This is why I am saying from the beginning that they are cutting the branch on which they stand.

But now you will come again with "i understand what he talks about and where he is coming from". But you say you don't give a shit about it. If you would understand it, that at least it would be the best to promote both of it, instead of favouring one game over another. I for my turn, don't see a bad thing in competitions on both sides. But if you shoot against all, which has to do with TM2, then you kill off tournaments on both games. If you see it, or if you don't see it. It will happen.

For all your talk about strengthening your notion of esports you seem to have conjured up, your actions are completely detrimental to the success of either game - you take attention away from the tournament and focus it on your agenda (you've clearly succeeded at that), and tarnish the actual cause you're promoting in the process.

i disagree, i think my actions of strongly going against TM2 is exactly what is needed. the sooner Nadeo realizes their mistake the better and i think if someone like i so publically go against TM2 that shows people that they don't have to follow what Nadeo says and can continue to play TMN as an esport. and as ive said, i think TMN is going better than ever right now. so i don't see how me going against TM2 hurts TMN in anyway, it's the opposite.

You know that you are "someone" in the TMN esport scene. Than act and behave like someone. As you probably noticed, TMN and TM2 aren't big at all in the scene, if you accumulate both player numbers. If this would be a fight between SC1 and SC2, i could see the problem, because you will loose a lot of money (from the organisational side). I could understand your behaviour about this stuff, if this would be the case. But, believe it or not, TM is only a small population in the esport. If TMN would be so strong and getting even better, why haven't we heard about a "Frostbeule HomeStory Cup"? Why is ESL shutting down some of the major TMN competitions? Why the big player decrease in STC, compared to previous versions (e.g. STC5)? If you would really care about TMN, then you would go and ask organisations to host tournaments and help with the organisation. You could really achieve something this way. But no, you decide to hurt the other fresh community which creates cups and competitions on their own and by the community (e.g. n!, alternate). And if something like this spreads word, than maybe some other organisations are likely to take part and to organise tournaments. But only if the player count is high. And if you suggest to set up a tournamnet by zotac for TM2 and TMN, you would reach nothing, except a player decrease for both competitions. At least this is what i think will happen. That's the same as your posting in the WCGthread achieved. For myself, it ruined partially the chances to get at least one TM game in. But keep doing as you like. I hope "super stadium" will get mouldy on the bookshelf's at nadeo HQ. With such actions, the TMN community simply doesn't deserve it. Maybe the release it 2 years after the 3rd TM2 envi, to prevent the destruction of TM2 as a whole. At least i would do it.

You come back saying people should reply with actual arguments rather than accusation of trolling, yet your supposed "argument" was coming into the thread saying two words, "wrong game". Now either you admit that's your actual argument (I would hope not, a 5 year old could create a more logically concrete statement), or you said that simply to illicit a reaction. Which one is it?

did you miss my posts after that? sure perhaps i have a tendency to provoke people, but i always follow it up with real arguments. im not saying im perfect though, i certainly can improve my debating skills. this subject though makes me very angry and frustrated, and it's been going on since 2008 so i tend to slip on the keyboard sometimes. but it's not like im spitting out illogical BS like you put it.

Would love to hear why you have problems with the other TM games since 2008? As you said, neither of the previous games were successful in hosting any esport tournaments. Therefore i don't get this argument. There were a few TMU events on some french LAN's, as a few tournamnets in the ESL without huge success. There was once the search for the german TMU champion, hosted by the german publisher deepsilver. But this didn't worked out quite well and haven't happened a second time.
Tell me, which game made TMN feel weak since 2008 (as it couldn't be a TM one) and angered you? Probably the Need for Speed series, or maybe forza? Did you put complaints to EA and Microsoft, why they dare to bring out racing games? I guess not.

[FrostBeule]

Don't see a problem with it (if it's for TM2 and TMN). But still i don't see why this should be a much better solution? And here we go again with hylis quote I still don't belive it, but it fits perfect to all of your statements, therefore i can't bring it up, often enough.

But there are many points I should overcome first, and the players attitude here, is the worse they can do for this to happen. This is why I am saying from the beginning that they are cutting the branch on which they stand.

But now you will come again with "i understand what he talks about and where he is coming from". But you say you don't give a shit about it. If you would understand it, that at least it would be the best to promote both of it, instead of favouring one game over another. I for my turn, don't see a bad thing in competitions on both sides. But if you shoot against all, which has to do with TM2, then you kill off tournaments on both games. If you see it, or if you don't see it. It will happen.

The reason why i don't see the point in promoting both games is because they are different games with different concepts. I've played a game for 5 years and that game is TMN and not any other Trackmania game. TM2 and this whole maniaplanet concept doesn't attract me. TMN was promoted differently and attracted a different crowd - a competitive crowd. The mistake Nadeo did was that they bundled these 2 different concepts together which imo created alot of problems and alot of hate between the 2 communities. You say that if i promote TM2 that will help TMN aswell, but how? Nadeo themselves have said they don't even like TMN and there's nothing that points to them supprting TMN in the future because for them Trackmania is just 1 thing which really is the core of the problem. I think if the TMN crowd continues to support TMN only just like the Counter-Strike 1.6 community did then that's a much better chance at showing Nadeo what a big mistake they've done and hopefully they will continue to support TMN so we can have a great esports future. but as you said, we are small and we definitely need the support of the developers.

So It is true TMN is not a big part of esports, but it is actually – believe it or not – THE established esports racing game right now. The issue however is that Nadeo are ruining that by promoting TM2 – which is a different concept – as a sequel to TMN. So TMN gets hurts by this and since I don't believe in the concept of TM2 as an esport it creates a lose-lose situation.

If TMN would be so strong and getting even better, why haven't we heard about a "Frostbeule HomeStory Cup"? Why is ESL shutting down some of the major TMN competitions? Why the big player decrease in STC, compared to previous versions (e.g. STC5)?

ESL shutting down some of the major TMN competitions? What have I missed? Both CAP and EMS are going great and we have some very good admins right now. The only bad thing with ESL is that some admins moved from TMN to TM2. The problem with admins is that they don't really care about which game they administrate and since they thought TM2 was the sequel to TMN as Nadeo told them they made this move. However the new admins we have now are former players so they have a different point of view on it. About the decrease in STC there's many explanations for it: 1: the registration for the tournament opened up only 1 week before the tournament started, this was because the schedule of EMS was very unpredictable and wasn't the same as last year which caused Gamble (the STC/NC admin) to make a drastic decision. So many people didn't have the chance to sign up for it. Another reason is of course that this was in the middle of the TM2 release which alot of people bought (again, in thinking it was a sequel to TMN as Nadeo told them). and lastly there were 2 other team tournaments going on at the same time. So that were the reasons why STC had so few (still over 60 tho) teams signed up.
You should know that only 1 month before the TmT tournament had over 100 teams signed up and the GC9 had 256 sign ups. And now we also see 85 teams signed up for the Alternate 24h Race which was an increase of 10 teams. Furthermore the TMM and FMV Legends 3 have just recently opened up their registration. The first with already 40+ teams signed up within 2 days. I also see that people now care and support more about TMN. I think the release of TM2 made people realize what game they really love even more.

If you would really care about TMN, then you would go and ask organisations to host tournaments and help with the organisation. You could really achieve something this way. But no, you decide to hurt the other fresh community which creates cups and competitions on their own and by the community (e.g. n!, alternate). And if something like this spreads word, than maybe some other organisations are likely to take part and to organise tournaments. But only if the player count is high. And if you suggest to set up a tournamnet by zotac for TM2 and TMN, you would reach nothing, except a player decrease for both competitions. At least this is what i think will happen.

I think I do alot of promoting and supporting of people that want to host tournaments. I am merely defending my own game imo and not attacking TM2. I think TMN DESERVES to be in an esports cup like Zotac considering that it's been an established esports game for 5 years now. To see a game with a completely different concept just come and replace that game forcefully is very sickening to me. I don't even wanna compare TMN and TM2 because to me they are completely different.

Would love to hear why you have problems with the other TM games since 2008? As you said, neither of the previous games were successful in hosting any esport tournaments. Therefore i don't get this argument. There were a few TMU events on some french LAN's, as a few tournamnets in the ESL without huge success. There was once the search for the german TMU champion, hosted by the german publisher deepsilver. But this didn't worked out quite well and haven't happened a second time.
Tell me, which game made TMN feel weak since 2008 (as it couldn't be a TM one) and angered you? Probably the Need for Speed series, or maybe forza? Did you put complaints to EA and Microsoft, why they dare to bring out racing games? I guess not.

I'm sorry but i think you are misunderstanding me. Basically what im saying is that since 2008 Nadeo (or rather Hylis i should say) have tried to change the esports scene into something different through various actions. I think it started when they made Forever and changed the car physics, following by introducing the dreadful and very anti-esports "finalist-mode" after the ESWC 2008. And then after that it's just been a complete mess with the "freezone" (btw ads are back now but the freezone is still there...) and culminating with the the aggressive promotion of TM2 as a sequel to TMN in esports at traditional esports events like Dreamhack and the ESL IEM. As i said, i think TMN works in esports for a reason because it has the esports concept. And if Nadeo truly cares about esports then they should listen to what we have to say and co-operate and not just throw it all away which they are doing now. just look at how Blizzard did. i believe a big reason why SC2 is so big right is because they listened to and respected the established esports scene to make sure they made the right thing. with Nadeo they have the complete opposite strategy. Nadeo are basically just abusing the esports scene right now. this leads me to believe that they really have no idea what they're doing, and they probably don't care very much either.

[Trackmaniack]

Frost. What we are saying is simple, and for some reason you are just to damn thick to get it. <_< Nobody's saying you can't disagree with Nadeo, or that you can't even disagree with them on pretty much everything (as you aggressively do). What we're saying, is don't do it to the detriment of their game, and, when all is said and done, Nadeo still has the final word. If they -really- want your opinion to influence the outcome of their decisions, then they'll hire you as a consultant. Until that point, all you're doing in the name of your white-knighting is scaring people away from what is otherwise a great game. YES, Nadeo made some changes to the formula with the addition of Nations forever. They're not game-breaking. ADJUST, like every other gamer does. Quit whining about how "Nations 2" would be "OMG LIEK A LEET GAME." If you have that serious a grievance with the way Hylis conducts business, discuss it through PMs. This, quite simply, is childish, and does nothing to increase our "gamer footprint," if you will, which is what we -all- want, right? I mean, you're not actually trying to keep people away from TM intentionally with this, are you? I would sure hope not.

[FrostBeule]

Nobody's saying you can't disagree with Nadeo, or that you can't even disagree with them on pretty much everything (as you aggressively do).

have i said that anyone's said i can't disagree with Nadeo? you are very confusing.

YES, Nadeo made some changes to the formula with the addition of Nations forever. They're not game-breaking. ADJUST, like every other gamer does. Quit whining about how "Nations 2" would be "OMG LIEK A LEET GAME."

Nadeo made TMN as an ESPORTS game, with that in mind, changing and adding things that drastically changes the game - without feedback from the esports community - is really not good if you want a healthy esport. which leads me to believe that they really are clueless about esports.

If you have that serious a grievance with the way Hylis conducts business, discuss it through PMs.

oh trust me, i have.

[Trackmaniack]

You haven't said specifically, but you're quick to attack anyone who doesn't see TM2 as a horrible game, and you'd rather air your proverbial dirty laundry here in public, specifically to tarnish Canyon's image, rather than discuss things privately and civilly. And, if you say "You have", then keep doing that! Again, unless your intention is to damage Canyon, Maniaplanet, and Nadeo, then PMs accomplish EXACTLY the same purpose: letting Hylis know what you don't like about what he's doing. But, since you can't seem to get this through your skull: HE has the last word. Not you. Not until you get one of those funky Maniaplanet shirts and get put on-staff.

[FrostBeule]

You haven't said specifically, but you're quick to attack anyone who doesn't see TM2 as a horrible game, and you'd rather air your proverbial dirty laundry here in public, specifically to tarnish Canyon's image, rather than discuss things privately and civilly. And, if you say "You have", then keep doing that! Again, unless your intention is to damage Canyon, Maniaplanet, and Nadeo, then PMs accomplish EXACTLY the same purpose: letting Hylis know what you don't like about what he's doing. But, since you can't seem to get this through your skull: HE has the last word. Not you. Not until you get one of those funky Maniaplanet shirts and get put on-staff.

i don't think TM2:Canyon is a bad game, it's ok and i do play it. so that's not what im trying to say at all and you've clearly missed my point(s).
i think PMs only do so much and i did do alot of that. but If i do it publicly then it will be available for people to read so they can make up their own opinion. i don't see anything wrong with that.

yes Hylis got the last word, and it's up to him where he wants to take this. you are absolutely right with that. but that doesn't mean that i should just sit quietly and see him destroying the game i love and that ive played competitively as an esport for 5 years. it's just not my style.

[tcq]

The reason why i don't see the point in promoting both games is because they are different games with different concepts. I've played a game for 5 years and that game is TMN and not any other Trackmania game. TM2 and this whole maniaplanet concept doesn't attract me. TMN was promoted differently and attracted a different crowd - a competitive crowd. The mistake Nadeo did was that they bundled these 2 different concepts together which imo created alot of problems and alot of hate between the 2 communities. You say that if i promote TM2 that will help TMN aswell, but how? Nadeo themselves have said they don't even like TMN and there's nothing that points to them supprting TMN in the future because for them Trackmania is just 1 thing which really is the core of the problem. I think if the TMN crowd continues to support TMN only just like the Counter-Strike 1.6 community did then that's a much better chance at showing Nadeo what a big mistake they've done and hopefully they will continue to support TMN so we can have a great esports future. but as you said, we are small and we definitely need the support of the developers.

What i mean is the following. See it from the side of the developer. You created 7 different environments to aim at different liking. Only one of them was designed for esport (here i don't argue with you, because it's a fact). The one for esports was a huge success because it was easy to learn, hard to master, free for all and directly from the start part of a great tournament (in this case the ESWC). Later on they tried to connect all communities into one big, with TMU and the forever update. But this was spoiled because nearly no one bought the game, because there were nearly no restrictions for this one. As the financial aid through marketing broke away, freezone tried to bring the people to TMU, to get some revenue which would be able to let TMF stay as it is.
Now they created the concept with maniaplanet, which will be TM2, SM, QM. Only SM seems to be directly aimed at esports. To keep nadeo alive, they need revenue which should come in by the new products. This means people would need to buy the different environments. And i don't see it happen, that people which refused to buy TMN (when it was free) and then refused to play TMU(after they bought it), because they were bad at the other environments (because they haven't had this 3-4 years on training as they had with stadium) or simply didn't like it, to buy this new environments. Then nadeo has different possibilites. The one which i would favour is, to shut the not paying game down and allow the people to play their competitions on TMU (there they can play only stadium) and nadeo had more revenue to give the players, which did something for them, something back. But nadeo decided to let it stay as it is and i think this is already a high bonus for you guys and you should do the best you can. Instead, you are going against TM2, which (i hope for) will lead in the end to a TMN shutdown.
But to come back to the mania planet principle. If they would really release a super stadium, do you think anyone will buy it, without a shutting down of TMN beforehand? And if they shut down TMN, do you think anyone would be interested in buying the other environments (e.g canyon/valley). The best would be, if the players which played TMN bought TM2 environments, even if they don't like it (on one hand to support nadeo for the great game they did with the free nations and on the other one to speed up the relase/development of a successor of stadium).
And this is, where my argumentation comes back to the esport level. If you make TM2 a success, you will get your new stadium (at least this is what i think). And as this new stadium would be the last one of the environments, it could be promoted as the "original successor of all other esport trackmanias" as you mean they did with Ubisoft for TM2 (which i still can't see). If you come with the dreamhack, they presented that game (and they didn't paid to boot out TMN, because their wouldn't have been any TM at all). Afterwards i didn't see a lot of action done by ubisoft (as Hylis said, the WCG put TM2 in the vote without their intervention).

So It is true TMN is not a big part of esports, but it is actually – believe it or not – THE established esports racing game right now. The issue however is that Nadeo are ruining that by promoting TM2 – which is a different concept – as a sequel to TMN. So TMN gets hurts by this and since I don't believe in the concept of TM2 as an esport it creates a lose-lose situation.

Sure i belive it, but you need to see the development of TMN on the larger time scale, not the short distance (e.g. the next 1-2 years). And NFS is able to get nearly each year new game which is used in competitions. I don't say that this could work for TM2 and the environments, but it could be done. With much help. And if this would work, you would get a huge amount of new players in the end for the "new stadium", which could again last for 5 years or more. But i don't see this happen, if TM2 isn't a success. It doesn't have to be on the esport level (it could be), but the last thing TM2 needs is people which make a bad publicity against it. Because this hurts both, nation players and all other trackmaniacks.

ESL shutting down some of the major TMN competitions? What have I missed? Both CAP and EMS are going great and we have some very good admins right now. The only bad thing with ESL is that some admins moved from TMN to TM2. The problem with admins is that they don't really care about which game they administrate and since they thought TM2 was the sequel to TMN as Nadeo told them they made this move. However the new admins we have now are former players so they have a different point of view on it.

Ah okay, sorry about my wrong misinformation. I was talking about the german section, which lost it's EPS. Didn't know about the European scene. My fault.

About the decrease in STC there's many explanations for it: 1: the registration for the tournament opened up only 1 week before the tournament started, this was because the schedule of EMS was very unpredictable and wasn't the same as last year which caused Gamble (the STC/NC admin) to make a drastic decision. So many people didn't have the chance to sign up for it. Another reason is of course that this was in the middle of the TM2 release which alot of people bought (again, in thinking it was a sequel to TMN as Nadeo told them). and lastly there were 2 other team tournaments going on at the same time. So that were the reasons why STC had so few (still over 60 tho) teams signed up.
You should know that only 1 month before the TmT tournament had over 100 teams signed up and the GC9 had 256 sign ups. And now we also see 85 teams signed up for the Alternate 24h Race which was an increase of 10 teams. Furthermore the TMM and FMV Legends 3 have just recently opened up their registration. The first with already 40+ teams signed up within 2 days. I also see that people now care and support more about TMN. I think the release of TM2 made people realize what game they really love even more.

Thx for the clarifications. About your last two sentences. This is the way it could go, if both communities are friendly to each other. But if one community is going against another, it might result in a lose for both (e.g. maybe zotac decides to neither host it for TM2 or TMN).

I think I do alot of promoting and supporting of people that want to host tournaments. I am merely defending my own game imo and not attacking TM2. I think TMN DESERVES to be in an esports cup like Zotac considering that it's been an established esports game for 5 years now. To see a game with a completely different concept just come and replace that game forcefully is very sickening to me. I don't even wanna compare TMN and TM2 because to me they are completely different.

The concept isn't really different. Both are racing games. The one was designed to be played on the ESWC. The other one was designed to be played on all competition which want to host a tournament on it.

I'm sorry but i think you are misunderstanding me. Basically what im saying is that since 2008 Nadeo (or rather Hylis i should say) have tried to change the esports scene into something different through various actions. I think it started when they made Forever and changed the car physics, following by introducing the dreadful and very anti-esports "finalist-mode" after the ESWC 2008. And then after that it's just been a complete mess culminating with the the aggressive promotion of TM2 as a sequel to TMN in esports at traditional esports events like Dreamhack and the ESL IEM. As i said, i think TMN works in esports for a reason because it has the esports concept. And if Nadeo truly cares about esports then they should listen to what we have to say and co-operate and not just throw it all away which they are doing now. just look at how Blizzard did. i believe a big reason why SC2 is so big right is because they listened to and respected the established esports scene to make sure they made the right thing. with Nadeo they have the complete opposite strategy. Nadeo are basically just abusing the esports scene right now. this leads me to believe that they really have no idea what they're doing, and they probably don't care very much either.

Okay, get your point. But to the "finalist-mode", as far as i remember they introduced it, but no one was forced to play it. Some did, some did not (e.g the ESL developed this special mode fore their games) and it worked great. In TM, it's not about what the people get, but what they can make out of TM. And this possibility is even bigger in TM2, than it was in TM1. Sure there are many things which needs to be fixed (e.g. still problems with the spectator mode and no tire traces on the relay servers), but overall it's going into the right direction.
Just be patient, try to do your best. But your attitude to be up in arms against TM2, every time it gets something is just hurting both competitions.

[iceman23]

I'm sorry but that's a load of BS. This is in no way an acceptable avenue to discuss your personal opinions on the TMN/TM2 debate.

perhaps im a bit more liberal about forum posting as i really don't see the point in making a new topic to reply to something that's connected to the subject. i honestly don't see how what i wrote didn't fit in that topic, but hey maybe that's just me.

That's a lame excuse and you know it. I really don't see how coming into a thread and saying "wrong game" is constructive in any forum, unless your goal was to make yourself look like an ass.

the tournament isn't on tmn, nor will it be.

don't be too early in saying that it won't be in TMN, i heard it through the grape-wine that the admin for the cup have asked zotac if it's possible to make both a TM2 and TMN tournament each week. hopefully zotac will be smart and accept that MUCH better solution (albeit not perfect).

Regardless of what happens in the future, the tournament in question was already running with TM2 and your comments are completely disrespectful to the organization. What is your idea of the perfect situation, that TM2 is pushed out completely? Think carefully if that's your goal - not only do you alienate a large part of the player-base, but also the very company that gave you the game you support.

For all your talk about strengthening your notion of esports you seem to have conjured up, your actions are completely detrimental to the success of either game - you take attention away from the tournament and focus it on your agenda (you've clearly succeeded at that), and tarnish the actual cause you're promoting in the process.

i disagree, i think my actions of strongly going against TM2 is exactly what is needed. the sooner Nadeo realizes their mistake the better and i think if someone like i so publically go against TM2 that shows people that they don't have to follow what Nadeo says and can continue to play TMN as an esport. and as ive said, i think TMN is going better than ever right now. so i don't see how me going against TM2 hurts TMN in anyway, it's the opposite.

It's the image you portray. What would a new player think if they saw your comments? But most importantly, what would a potential tournament organizer think? Do you think outright negativity like this, especially from the game's best player, is going to look good to a professional? Hell no. Get out there and promote your game of choice - you have a sponsor, you have the limelight - USE IT POSITIVELY. Don't take the cowards approach of degrading what, in your personal opinion, is the lesser game for esports. It's like the politician who bases his entire campaign around smearing the opponent - it may get you some votes, but in the end, only the candidate who presents a positive argument is actually able to accomplish something. Instead of telling us why TM2 is so bad, tell us what you're going to do to promote TMN, and do it without degrading and disrespecting TM2 players and tournament organizers.

You come back saying people should reply with actual arguments rather than accusation of trolling, yet your supposed "argument" was coming into the thread saying two words, "wrong game". Now either you admit that's your actual argument (I would hope not, a 5 year old could create a more logically concrete statement), or you said that simply to illicit a reaction. Which one is it?

did you miss my posts after that? sure perhaps i have a tendency to provoke people, but i always follow it up with real arguments. im not saying im perfect though, i certainly can improve my debating skills. this subject though makes me very angry and frustrated, and it's been going on since 2008 so i tend to slip on the keyboard sometimes. but it's not like im spitting out illogical BS like you put it.

Of course I didn't miss the rest of your posts, I simply didn't feel they dignified a response. You can't drop a one-liner like that and in the next breath chastise someone for not replying to you with a concrete argument. My position, unlike yours, is not against a game. I played TMN from the beginning just like you, and it's still probably the game I've enjoyed the most (probably in large part due to the great people I've played with over the years), however it simply got old for me. You have to face the facts, TMN is ancient in the realm of video games; eventually interest will wane no matter how hard you try. I'm all for supporting TMN competitions to keep it alive, and even would love to see a TMN2 or something of the like. This is not a mutually exclusive goal, you can support TMN without throwing TM2 in the dumpster at every chance you get.

YES, Nadeo made some changes to the formula with the addition of Nations forever. They're not game-breaking. ADJUST, like every other gamer does. Quit whining about how "Nations 2" would be "OMG LIEK A LEET GAME."

Nadeo made TMN as an ESPORTS game, with that in mind, changing and adding things that drastically changes the game - without feedback from the esports community - is really not good if you want a healthy esport. which leads me to believe that they really are clueless about esports.

Have you ever actually been a part of another esport community? EVERY SINGLE minute change that's made to DOTA/HON/LOL is followed by thousands of people raging on the forums at the developers. And many of these changes are made without any previous support from the players. It's this way in many other communities as well, a percentage of players will dislike any change. Nadeo will continue to do what they think is in their best interest, and as much as you don't like it, you can't do a thing about it other than present an argument as to what would be in their best interest. At this point, do you think they want to listen to a word you have to say? No, and that's completely due to your negative attitude. Even if you're too blind to see it, you're hurting your own cause.