Debate on TM² Canyon in eSport

[FrostBeule]

EDIT: these posts were originally made in this topic but got moved by an admin: http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic.php?f=268&t=8425 so you know what the subject is about.

so you're suggesting i make another topic in another part of the forum to reply to this topic or what? im a bit confused. btw there's no such thing as "trackmania 1" TMU and TMN are different games with different concepts. nadeo are just lazily and confusingly piling up all their games into the same group which creates situations like these where the wrong game gets selected for an esports cup like this. it's really sad to see and i think im entitled to express that opinion. if you don't like that opinion then so be it but don't accuse me of trolling, that's just really low.

[Figos]

It's good to see new tournaments being organized on a blossoming game like Tm2 with a great future coming toward us!

@Frost: and btw, stadium is 1/7 of TM1 or else called tmuf

[FrostBeule]

It's good to see new tournaments being organized on a blossoming game like Tm2 with a great future coming toward us!

@Frost: and btw, stadium is 1/7 of TM1 or else called tmuf

that happened later, and i think it was a really bad idea (see my previous point about lazily and confusingly piling up their games into the same group). the reality is that TMN was always independent with a different community. ive played a (esport) game for 5 years now and that game is not called anything but TMN (ok, some call it Stadium too).
and what's really sad to see is that Nadeo is continuing this "strategy" by heavily promoting TM2 as a sequel to TMN when in reality they are of complete different concepts. that just makes it extra confusing and especially in an esports point of view where the organizations think that putting TM2 in their tournaments is the right thing to do as we see here but also in WCG. that just hurts the already established TMN esports scene. a scene which btw is far from dead. i would even go so far to say that it's never done better despite all the strange efforts of nadeo to bring it down.

[tcq]

that happened later, and i think it was a really bad idea (see my previous point about lazily and confusingly piling up their games into the same group). the reality is that TMN was always independent with a different community. ive played a (esport) game for 5 years now and that game is not called anything but TMN (ok, some call it Stadium too).
and what's really sad to see is that Nadeo is continuing this "strategy" by heavily promoting TM2 as a sequel to TMN when in reality they are of complete different concepts. that just makes it extra confusing and especially in an esports point of view where the organizations think that putting TM2 in their tournaments is the right thing to do as we see here but also in WCG. that just hurts the already established TMN esports scene. a scene which btw is far from dead. i would even go so far to say that it's never done better despite all the strange efforts of nadeo to bring it down.

To summarise your post, it will be like "... wäähhh ..."
This discussion is really useless here, because this is about e TM2 esport Event, which has nothing to do with TMN. If you want to cry, go and continue your WCG topic, because there was already everything said what you are saying here.
If you want to discuss this cup (the map choice, the system of the cup,if you think how many people will participate and so on), you are welcome to do so.

[FrostBeule]

that happened later, and i think it was a really bad idea (see my previous point about lazily and confusingly piling up their games into the same group). the reality is that TMN was always independent with a different community. ive played a (esport) game for 5 years now and that game is not called anything but TMN (ok, some call it Stadium too).
and what's really sad to see is that Nadeo is continuing this "strategy" by heavily promoting TM2 as a sequel to TMN when in reality they are of complete different concepts. that just makes it extra confusing and especially in an esports point of view where the organizations think that putting TM2 in their tournaments is the right thing to do as we see here but also in WCG. that just hurts the already established TMN esports scene. a scene which btw is far from dead. i would even go so far to say that it's never done better despite all the strange efforts of nadeo to bring it down.

To summarise your post, it will be like "... wäähhh ..."
This discussion is really useless here, because this is about e TM2 esport Event, which has nothing to do with TMN. If you want to cry, go and continue your WCG topic, because there was already everything said what you are saying here.
If you want to discuss this cup (the map choice, the system of the cup,if you think how many people will participate and so on), you are welcome to do so.

i believe it fits perfectly as if it wasn't for TMN this cup wouldn't have happened at all. and this topic is a perfectly reasonable place to express opinions or discuss those things. as i said, if you don't like what i say then that's fine, but don't try to downgrade what i write by saying it doesn't belong here or that i'm "trolling", THAT'S what i call useless. instead come with counter-arguments if you have any.

[tcq]

@off topic/Frostbeule

i believe it fits perfectly as if it wasn't for TMN this cup wouldn't have happened at all. and this topic is a perfectly reasonable place to express opinions or discuss those things. as i said, if you don't like what i say then that's fine, but don't try to downgrade what i write by saying it doesn't belong here or that i'm "trolling", THAT'S what i call useless. instead come with counter-arguments if you have any.

I'm not trying to downgrade what you wrote, but for me it looks like you like to read the same stuff over and over again (especially if you wrote it). Furthermore, i don't need counter arguments, because everything was already written in the WCG thread on TM-Actu, as i posted above.

But to give you some kind of stuff to discuss, here are some questions.
Why shouldn't this cup haven't happend without TMN? Are you an insider of zotac and leaking top secrete internal documents which are founding your hypothesis? Did you hacked into the server of zotac and found a conspiracy theory against TMN, which favours TM2? Are you a mentalist which can read their minds? I don't think so.
But to be honest, i can't proof that your theory is wrong. But as it was visible in other discussions, i don't need to proof it wrong because you are not able to take arguments of the opposition, to comprehend them and to answer accordingly (see the WCG topic). Just as Hylis said (which is by far my favourite quote)

But there are many points I should overcome first, and the players attitude here, is the worse they can do for this to happen. This is why I am saying from the beginning that they are cutting the branch on which they stand.

But as i said i'm not going to continue the debate which was started there.

@on topic
What do you guys think off the collaboration with ET, that they use the TWL1/TNC1 maps for their cups? I guess this should give motivation to a lot of players out of this to competitions to take part in this Cup. And maybe we see Frost there too, because that's not a fun cup

[FrostBeule]

@on topic/Frostbeule

i believe it fits perfectly as if it wasn't for TMN this cup wouldn't have happened at all. and this topic is a perfectly reasonable place to express opinions or discuss those things. as i said, if you don't like what i say then that's fine, but don't try to downgrade what i write by saying it doesn't belong here or that i'm "trolling", THAT'S what i call useless. instead come with counter-arguments if you have any.

I'm not trying to downgrade what you wrote, but for me it looks like you like to read the same stuff over and over again (especially if you wrote it). Furthermore, i don't need counter arguments, because everything was already written in the WCG thread on TM-Actu, as i posted above.

perhaps i am a bit repetitive yes, but at the same time it's not like i repeat myself without any reason. this zotac cup is something new and i just wrote my opinions based on this new development. however it most certainly is not "trolling" as you call it. im not here to joke around, i take my esport very seriously.

But to give you some kind of stuff to discuss, here are some questions.
Why shouldn't this cup haven't happend without TMN? Are you an insider of zotac and leaking top secrete internal documents which are founding your hypothesis? Did you hacked into the server of zotac and found a conspiracy theory against TMN, which favours TM2? Are you a mentalist which can read their minds? I don't think so.
But to be honest, i can't proof that your theory is wrong. But as it was visible in other discussions, i don't need to proof it wrong because you are not able to take arguments of the opposition, to comprehend them and to answer accordingly (see the WCG topic). Just as Hylis said (which is by far my favourite quote)

But there are many points I should overcome first, and the players attitude here, is the worse they can do for this to happen. This is why I am saying from the beginning that they are cutting the branch on which they stand.

But as i said i'm not going to continue the debate which was started there.

this cup wouldn't have happened without TMN because TMN was what got "trackmania" into esports. before TMN "trackmania" was not representive in the esports world. and with "esports world" i mean in regards of the money, the big tournaments, the sponsors, the fans etc. so if it wasn't for Nadeo making TMN i believe the TMO/TMS/TMU/TM2 community wouldve never reached this point. and i believe the only reason why TM2 have this cup now is because Nadeo are heavily promoting the game as a sequel to TMN which makes the organizations think IT IS the sequel to TMN and that it's the right step to take the game under its wings. but in reality these games have very different concepts: there's the "triathlon" concept of TMO, TMS and soon TM2 and then there's the esports concept of TMN or call it "football" if you want. i honestly don't think the first concept fits esports very well, and i think there's a reason why TMN works as an esport.

and about hylis i definitely disagree. i think i perfectly understand where he is coming from, but i think he doesn't understand at all (nor respect) from where i come from (the esports direction). i think the many decisions he's made - without wanting any feedback from the esports community - over the years prove that. examples: finalist mode, change of physics from TMNESWC to TMNF and of course the biggest of them all: the promotion of TM2 as a sequel to TMN as an esport. the guy hardcore believes in the phrase "my way or the highway". and if anyone goes against his thoughts they are "insulting" him and he asks for an apology following by refusing to replying to the arguments thrown at him unless he gets his apology. i think that is an extremely poor way of handling a discussion if you ask me, and ive had alot of experience with that over the years, trust me.

@on topic
What do you guys think off the collaboration with ET, that they use the TWL1/TNC1 maps for their cups? I guess this should give motivation to a lot of players out of this to competitions to take part in this Cup. And maybe we see Frost there too, because that's not a fun cup

i actually already signed up for this competition and will compete in it. but don't confuse that with me accepting the game over TMN. i am merely trying to take advantage of this very bad situation whilst i can.

[Trackmaniack]

Frost. Don't be baaawing just because your precious Stadium isn't the only racing game from Nadeo in Esport anymore, kay? Here's something for you to wrap your head around. There is a TM-Forum. There is a TM1 section of THIS forum. If you have any comments to make about Nations, go to one of those places. See this forum category? Trackmania 2 --> Multiplayer. I don't know what that says to you, as English isn't your first language, but to me, that states that the primary mode of discussion shall be about TM2's Multiplayer. I don't know how much simpler Hylis needs to make that for you, buddy. You really need to quit griefing. TM2 isn't going anywhere. If you don't like it, don't play it. Now, I know you say "Well what makes you think I don't like it?" and "I do play it." Admittedly, this is true. You probably play more -online- than I do, if you want an honest appraisal. The difference between me and you, however, is the similar difference between myself and a member of another forum I was once a member of. For some reason, he had a personal beef with one of the devs of World in Conflict, an RTS-style game. This grievance was so deep, that he actually went on the rival forums (For Tom Clancy's EndWar), and bashed WiC there. This is what you do. Again, this other person actually played World in Conflict, just like you play TM2. However, you take every opportunity to complain about how terrible TM2 is, how it's horning in on your precious Nations, and how everything would only be better if they just made Nations 2--essentially cloning the way Nations works NOW, just with shinier graphics. I was going to make a separate post about this, but it seems to fit here. The engine is the only PROBLEM with TM2, in my eyes. It's beautiful, it's shiny, it's awesome--it's unrefined. Not optimized. When that happens, TM2 will blow everything else out of the water. Simple.

[FrostBeule]

Frost. Don't be baaawing just because your precious Stadium isn't the only racing game from Nadeo in Esport anymore, kay? Here's something for you to wrap your head around. There is a TM-Forum. There is a TM1 section of THIS forum. If you have any comments to make about Nations, go to one of those places. See this forum category? Trackmania 2 --> Multiplayer. I don't know what that says to you, as English isn't your first language, but to me, that states that the primary mode of discussion shall be about TM2's Multiplayer. I don't know how much simpler Hylis needs to make that for you, buddy. You really need to quit griefing. TM2 isn't going anywhere. If you don't like it, don't play it. Now, I know you say "Well what makes you think I don't like it?" and "I do play it." Admittedly, this is true. You probably play more -online- than I do, if you want an honest appraisal. The difference between me and you, however, is the similar difference between myself and a member of another forum I was once a member of. For some reason, he had a personal beef with one of the devs of World in Conflict, an RTS-style game. This grievance was so deep, that he actually went on the rival forums (For Tom Clancy's EndWar), and bashed WiC there. This is what you do. Again, this other person actually played World in Conflict, just like you play TM2. However, you take every opportunity to complain about how terrible TM2 is, how it's horning in on your precious Nations, and how everything would only be better if they just made Nations 2--essentially cloning the way Nations works NOW, just with shinier graphics. I was going to make a separate post about this, but it seems to fit here. The engine is the only PROBLEM with TM2, in my eyes. It's beautiful, it's shiny, it's awesome--it's unrefined. Not optimized. When that happens, TM2 will blow everything else out of the water. Simple.

[Trackmaniack]

I don't think that means I won the argument, but I did get a little chuckle out of rendering you speechless for a change