I am not happy with current state of Trackmania

[eyebo]

I probably rationalize/reason things out very strangely in my brain. But the amount of money I've saved not having to buy other games; because TM is sufficient entertainment for years of gameplay... TM is worth at least 30 or 40 times what I paid for it.

If every environment of TM2 was $500 I'd gladly pay it, just because I know I'll get my moneys worth out of it, and I'd rather give Nadeo the money than a lot of other developers who build a game I only play for an hour and never touch again.

$25 is a good price point, as people don't know the value they're getting for their money, and so it's easy to jump into it at that price. As you say, a lot of games cost a lot more.

Nadeo still has to make a profit. This is a business after all.

The only people who seem not to like paying for only one environment are those who had United. United was a bundle of previous games though, in an effort to pull everything together and extend the life of those environments.

I think you have to stop thinking of Canyon as a single environment. It's a title. It's its own game. It's true its part of the larger ecosystem of ManiaPlanet. But it's standalone. Nations was also a standalone game. True it was free, but no one seems to have a problem with it having only one environment.

I agree with the OP in that there are some thing about TMNF that could be better in its current state. Most notably, FreeZone was, in retrospect, a seemingly bad move that alienated a lot of players. It wasn't just about making people pay to get United. It also restricted the game for those who did pay if they wanted to continue to play on active Nations Forever servers.

I was actually for the FreeZone concept when it was instituted. I was one of the few dissenting voices that expressed my support for it. Financially, perhaps it has proved a success for Nadeo. But from a community standpoint, I think it has proved to be a major misstep.

Well, Nadeo isn't infallible. They just do the best they can with the time they have. The best we can do is to rally behind them when they're doing things we like, and point out possible problems when they make a move we find questionable. I think you've done that in the OP, and also there is that poll with thousands of votes to remove FreeZone. Surely more than just a handful of users who want to see some things change in Nations Forever.

[Alter-Fox]

If every environment of TM2 was $500 I'd gladly pay it...

Don't give them ideas...

[Hylis]

Stop, it is obvious. We had to find a new way to support financially the game, we did it. It could have been better but would have asked more time to develop instead of moving forward on Maniaplanet. We are running after every hour of work. Priorities are just all big. The list of improvements we can do are somehow like of thousands items

And I don't think you should argue that I have to work more. We have plan for the future that you are unaware off for good reasons as well. For now, Forever is here, players are here, the game is still free somehow and you can still play it. But, me too I am unhappy with the current state of TrackMania and I wish Microsoft would not close it's advertising business like this. And I am unhappy of many things, but I rather see all the positive things. This is why normally I don't speak to some players, even if I am unhappy of the way they are negative on nearly all their posts. But this is how it is.

What is a poll where you ask to people: do you want something positive to happen? There is no debate, I can sign it right away as well. A question should have a balance: do you wish that freezone disappear as well as free access or keep it like that? This is a real question. Otherwise, it is named a petition.

This being said, I will look at this when I will have time. But I will see this with constructive people, not always negative posts players that are still here after years saying that everything is bad but playing competitions on Stadium and Canyon.

[adder]

Stop

Indeed this discussion is useless,

we should stop the argue and join our forces to come up with new good idea's !

i think there's many other - better - solutions out there.

share them with us, maybe a real solution can be found

the community has always been involved in the tm games, so now we can help nadeo
to find a solution for the freezone. Because they obviously have already a lot of work to do
(MP2.0, shootmania, valley, questmania, ...)

[Filipe1020]

Why people still keep asking for a new nations...

[eyebo]

It always impresses me that Hylis takes the time to address these sorts of doomsday topics.

We all know how much he loves the game and the community.

I think there are probably many factors at play behind a seeming decline in players in Nations Forever. FreeZone can't be blamed 100%. It's just a small piece of the puzzle.

Remember the game itself is getting older (2008 for TMNF, 2006 for TMN). There are many other great games out to distract people, many of which are increasingly taking on a very community oriented aspect to them. Also, much of the player base that has grown up with TM... they're now getting older and are either in university or are starting families. Either way, they have less time for TM than they used to, or maybe even less interest in it than they once had. Indeed, they may have less time for gaming in general. The economy in many nations around the world has also taken a turn for the worse, so even older players who were able to play in the past may be taking on more work to support their families, and as a result have less time to play.

It's too bad Microsoft had to pull their plug on advertising and cause this domino effect that led to FreeZone. But the game is still free. All the features are still there too. And the use of the editor is still unlimited. I think people forget that most of the game is still quite uninhibited.

I have no doubt that by and large new players probably have no problems with FreeZone because it's all they've ever known. So forget what you knew about old TMNF and look at it as a new version of the game. After all, that's what it is.

Player participation in TMNF has dropped on the non-freezone servers, but getting down to a personal level... how many people do you actually need to play with anyway? I'm happy to play on a server with 5 to 10 other people. Any more than that, and it just gets a bit chaotic. 5 to 10 makes for a nice group, especially if you're playing some fun rounds on a server with a low ping. I never liked the fact that I'd join some of these huge TMNF servers and no one talked to one another. If you talked, you were told to shut up and drive. It's why I mostly stayed away from TMNF servers and played on United. I warmed up to TMNF a bit when I started playing on some RPG servers where the player base there had a completely different attitude. I also recall playing on some Dirt servers where the players were quite friendly.

My point is, big servers aren't everything. I think the most fun in TM can be found by finding your niche and developing a small community around it by being active with like-minded players.

I'm personally excited about the future of TM, and on a larger scale... ManiaPlanet itself. I think there's more potential here than most people realize. The FPS market is huge, and if even a small percentage of those players come to Storm, it could be really big. And if just a small percentage of those players look into Canyon and Valley, the community has the potential to grow by leaps and bounds.

That having been said, things are actually pretty good right now too. There's plenty of people to play with online (seriously, there are! I play online all the time with lots of people.). New tracks are released all the time. The modding community is active. More TM videos are posted than ever before. Video makers are very active. So many competitions take place that there's no chance to even participate in all of them, even if you were crazy enough to try. There's more possibilities for things to do than you can possibly keep up with.

The past can't be changed. There's absolutely no use to dwell on it. Sure, we can learn from the past, but we can't let it get us down about the present or about the future.

We're all just at the start of this big adventure.

In my opinion, as someone who has played TrackMania for over 5 years, I think the state of TrackMania has never been better.

We are at a crossroads though. You have to make your choice whether you want to continue on the adventure or get off here. I choose to continue with it.

I think for those of us veteran players who are still around, we have the awesome privilege and responsibility to introduce new players to this game we've always loved, and to TrackMania's new cousin, ShootMania.

I keep reminding myself that my focus needs to be to welcome new people and to contribute to the kind of community I'd want to be a part of if I were a new player here.

I hope more players will take on that same focus.

As Nadeo has often said, they simply make the tools.

We make the game.

[FrostBeule]

Moderated

[Omnixor]

about being positive or negative, i don't really see the point in just kissing asses. to be constructive is about saying how it is, say what can be better/improved and how, and i think that's what i'm always doing with a straightforward approach. like it or not, it's just my style.

I like it <3 same thing I'm doing on TMX, and everyone is bitching at me for that.

Edit: moderated

Edit2: dafuq moderators?! no democracy here. will I get warning for posting the link to my signature?

[Hylis]

I like it <3 same thing I'm doing on TMX, and everyone is bitching at me for that.

guess why?

You are in an place about a game, where people want to have fun and there is no right to say that people kicks ass or whatever insulting like that. You would not say that in front of them and it is not because you are on internet that you can do this without becoming too negative.

You can say stuff like this sometimes, since we can all have our moments. But if you make a reputation out of it, let's say that moderation can ask yourselves, if you do not know what is moderation, to leave it.

Edit2: dafuq moderators?! no democracy here.

Revise your definition of democracy. What you are more suggesting is anarchy, where everybody does has he wants. Democracy means that there are rules defined by some people that are elected at a majority. So, if you really wants a democracy here, just present yourselves to be the main moderator, or Frostbeule, and we will see if people elect you more than the one that are already here. I can present myself against you if you doubt that the outcome can be as things are today.

[Omnixor]

insulting? that's just a fact. instead of pointing out bad and improveable things, certain people just prefer saying that "tm2 is awesome, don't change a single thing, let nadeo work two more years for next envi, and this is amazing, we're in a start of a big adventure" (exaggerating ofc, but meaning is quite the same). that's useful? no.

I don't say I said something useful now tho, frostbeule did.