Matchmaking: bug reports

[arn22433]

• - Versace 2k15
  - Paladin 2k13
  - Rust 2k15 by trixda
  - Spitfire
  - Old sun 2k15
  - Numb
  - Valley of Damned
  - Golden rush 2k15
  - Malevolence 2k15
  - Greenvalley 2k15
  - Valiant ESWC
  - Gunner's Dream

Gunner's dream, Golden rush, rust (by trixda). These maps might be nice, but there not played on cup. On the other hand interupt'o is in CPLAY's mappool and it shouldnt be on mm ?

Concerning the paragon invote maps, i agree, most of them are terrible, but some seem playable to me. And if one of them is supposed to enter paragon's mappool, then we should be able to play it now

[Rots]

slightly offtopic:

I'm sorry to say but this is what happens when 10 different communities/competition hosters make their own mappool with 239 versions of the same map. This is what happens when 10 different players post the mappool, confusion.

It's good to have variety and it's good to see many leagues series out there but the mappool should be centralised and managed by some innocent hand (nadeo).

Most of you will say: "wtf u talking 'bout! NADEO *blaming nadeo* ". I think they are smart enough to set a map voting system under some map renewal criteria and map remake renewal.

Another thing would be NADEO wanted to do this... Just to keep things organized and not killing their game with 2009 avant-pre-alpha maps with a teleport block.

[arn22433]

So they're 3 leagues : Paragon, ESL and CPLAY
if you take all their maps, you've like 15 maps but ESL is going to change and take CPLAY's mappool so they're around 12/13 maps played in cups.

Lot of people asked nadeo to manage maps and votes at shootmania's begin, but they didn't.
The only time i remember nadeo managing mappool's (it's probably not the only one) it was for ESWC 2013 (mappool with ricochet etc), and the result was one of the most terrible mappool's, but for once the whole community had the same opinion about a mappool ....

Also, novationx posted a mappool, with a MANUAL (i just said afterwards it would be nice to add paragon invote maps). The result is that right now, CPLAY maps AREN'T on matchmaking, despite novationx's clear explanation !

[novationx]

@ROTS: I agree, but.

NADEO is financially sponsoring these 3 leagues and not 10. So it would be nice to have the maps on their MM.
On top of that ESL will take over CPLAY's mappack. And Paragon is working together with CPLAY.

Result: 12/13 maps. All this drama is actually no big deal ^^

[gouxim]

It's not that offtopic Rots ; the last posts show this question is still open/debatable/improvable.

Having several mappacks is a good thing: they all have differenent concerns/constraints, and it goes with the diversity of the community. I would even go further in saying that having several mappacks is almost a requirement.

In the current state, I do agree there's confusion though. So one can ask whose responsability it is to provide a framework for organizing that diversity: Nadeo's, or the community's (or both)?

Having a centralized system provided by Nadeo might help on the short run, but I'm not sure it really make sense on the long run because it will always be tricky to provide a system that answer all the concerns and constraints of the community.

We have never provided a service to handle mappacks, and that hasn't stopped the TrackMania community from creating a great ecosystem for maps and competition mappacks without our help. I think the shootmania community still has a lot to learn from that. We have tried to show some ideas, like the Maps of the week lobby, but without too much success for now.

Maybe the different actors of the "mappacking" community could open up a debate on the process of bringing clarity in all this ?

That beeing said, I'm not saying Nadeo should or will do nothing about that. There probably are tools and services we can provide to ease all this. I just think it will be more relevant if we provide things not in reponse to confusion, but in response to feedback from an already-organized mappacking communtiy.

* As always on this forum, this view is entirely my own, not Nadeo's. Maybe the others will agree, maybe not

[novationx]

I think NADEO can provide everything we need, but they find an excuse to outsource it to the community.
SM is out 3years and every 5/6months we have this same discussion.

Btw, it's not easy to be the "boss" of 'map selection'. You need to contact mappers, let them post their maps. Collect feedback, let the mappers update their maps, everybody should be able to rate the maps... etc etc.
Without help of NADEO its simply not possible. It's a fulltime job and it's not really meant for the community imo.

I've played TM too ( not on a competitive level ) but they also experience these same issues. Because the TM community is older they have more "fixes" for these problems. That's it and nothing more.

As a developer thats 15y in this bussiness I would have found a solution already. What if you release QuestMania ( that will also have a different community )? Will you, again, wait 3years until someone, maybe, develops a map-rating-system?

NADEO should just provide the tools just as they provide the map-editor. And on every server we play should be a rating-system by default. Ez pz.

In the end we are the gamers, and NADEO are the developers. In ManiaPlanet we can create a lot ( with tools ). There should also be tools to rate our creations and update them in an efficient way. This part has been forgotten by NADEO.

[gouxim]

Novationx: you assume a lot. Please let me suggest you to read this: http://blog.codinghorror.com/what-if-we ... e-empathy/

[novationx]

Novationx: you assume a lot. Please let me suggest you to read this: http://blog.codinghorror.com/what-if-we ... e-empathy/

I expressed an opinion in a polite manner for a reoccuring problem. I fight for what I believe and I didnt insult anyone. Linking me this page insulted me btw.
Maybe some of my words are assumptions, but definately not all.

Please let me suggest to you to read this: http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/As ... le%207.pdf

[plopp]

We have never provided a service to handle mappacks, and that hasn't stopped the TrackMania community from creating a great ecosystem for maps and competition mappacks without our help. I think the shootmania community still has a lot to learn from that. We have tried to show some ideas, like the Maps of the week lobby, but without too much success for now.

[Edited by Cerovan: Off-Topic]

Don't see how it was off-topic if the one I responded to was on topic, but ok. Where should I tell him that his comparison is bad then? PM?

[gouxim]

Novation, let's take for instance this quote from your previous message: "I think NADEO can provide everything we need, but they find an excuse to outsource it to the community".

This is not "expressing an opinion in a polite manner". This is not criticism. This is assumption, and this is not polite.

Empathy is "the capacity to share or recognize emotions experienced by another sentient or fictional being". Saying things like the quote above displays a lack of empathy. Obviously on the internet it is very easy to behave like this, for everyone including me.

But it's important to recognize the power and the need for empathy in order to have a constructive discussion. Your response ("Linking me this page insulted me btw.") makes me think that you dont recognize that, though I might be wrong ? Edit: Or you were talking about my phrasing, which I guess can sound condescending even though it was not intended.