MatchMaking Lobbies feedbacks

[Mooon]

This is something I never really saw people do in TM, and it saddens me to see people do it in SM. Comparing maps, as if you have to pick one over the other. And to ridicule the originator of a map and credit the ripoff as if its better. That's extremely rude.

Again I'm sorry if you thought that I was ridiculing a map creator, I was just stating my opinion of the maps. Nothing personal at all. And "Comparing maps, picking one over the other" is actually really necessary in an e-sport driven game. Choosing a map-pack and sticking to it for a certain amount of time is in my opinion the best way of making this game competitive.

I've actually played maps that I liked more. Many of them have been Nadeo maps. Many are so-called "hipster" Nadeo maps that never got much gameplay in competitions. They are often very experimental in their layout and make for a lot of fun. Others are maps that can be found on MX or maps made by friends who are experimenting with the new blocks and trying different layouts.

Of course playing random new maps with a few friends can be really fun! But in a competitive environment there just aren't room for experimental untested maps in the main map-pool. What we need is a map-pack (like Nadeo/ManiaActu map-pack) that offers tested and fun maps. I'm not saying that the current ManiaActu map-pack is ideal, far from it. Just that its in my opinion better than the Nadeo one.

[amani]

Listen to Mooon, he speaks the truth.

[eyebo]

First of all, thanks for replying to my post.

Again I'm sorry if you thought that I was ridiculing a map creator, I was just stating my opinion of the maps. Nothing personal at all.

Understood. I apologize if I may have imputed bad motives to you.

And "Comparing maps, picking one over the other" is actually really necessary in an e-sport driven game.

Of course it is. That's a very important part of the process. My problem is not with comparing different maps but with comparing essentially the same map by two different authors. One is the original, the other is a modification by a different author.

I guess I should explain why I feel this way. Ever since I first saw TheCastle2 I've been a bit annoyed that Tatar ("author" of TheCastle2) took someone else's work (Nadeo), modified it a little bit, and then submitted it to ESL, and then that the admins even allowed it and that it somehow got picked. In my opinion it was ethically wrong that they even let it be part of the pool of choices. If they wanted TheCastle, they should have used the original. if the original wasn't suited for their purposes, they could have requested some changes by the original author for this pack. I'm sure Nadeo's mapper, PapyChampy, would probably have been happy to made some specific modifications for this pool, if any were needed at all.

If Tatar wanted to submit a map for the pool, which is commendable for him to do so, then he should have built a map from scratch like everyone else does, and not recycle other people's work and put his name on it.

So that's why I feel a bit annoyed whenever someone talks about TheCastle2. Obviously you probably didn't know any of this, and you just like playing it better. That's fine. And I'm sorry I reacted so harshly in my earlier post.

My issues with TheCastle2 have less to do with the map and more to do with how it was handled. Though I do prefer the original. I think it has a much better flow and more interesting approaches to each area.

Choosing a map-pack and sticking to it for a certain amount of time is in my opinion the best way of making this game competitive.

Certainly that's true for those who want to play competitively. That's not everyone though. And let me be clear when I talk about "play competitively". I'm talking about training for scheduled competitions, organizing a team, and playing against other teams. Not everyone does that. Yeah, this is an eSport driven game. Nadeo/Ubisoft obviously push hard to put that out there as the primary message behind the game. But I think the game can also be so much more than an eSport. Elite is great casual fun. I love the breaks that I can take while spectating my teammates attacking. To be honest, it feels quite relaxed, more so than most other gamemodes in ShootMania. And that's why I like it.

I'm going to talk about maps again. You know, one of the things I was extremely excited about when I first heard about ShootMania in 2009 was that it wouldn't be like other shooters. I imagined it would be a lot like TrackMania, with an easy editor (it is). I imagined that 100s of new maps would be created daily, and that we would have more maps to choose from than we could possibly play.

In my mind, the beauty of the game was that there would be a near infinite number of map designs to choose from. I imagined that the measure of the best players would not just be those who had skill and played well, but those who would be able to read the map designs quickly, know different block combinations, know the physics really well, and memorize different routes on thousands of maps, not just a dozen or so.

That's already true of most TrackMania players, and I had always imagined the same would happen in ShootMania. I still believe that someday it will. I haven't given up hope. Perhaps it will not happen for the majority of Elite players. Maybe Elite players are happy with accepting the old paradigm of playing just a few maps and knowing them really well. I personally think that's not a very interesting way to play the game. It's much more interesting to learn new maps all the time (and by that I mean every day), and discover what interesting things you can do with the game, always pushing it forward.

But I can also see how people are used to centering in on a very small set of maps and knowing them extremely well, and squeezing every ounce of the map for every trick and secret it can possibly hold. Certainly that's how it is in most other shooters. To each their own there.

Back to the topic though.... Do the MatchMaking Lobbies need to use the ESL map pack? I think it really depends. What are the MatchMaking Lobbies for? Are they for competitive players to find someone to play with and learn maps in anticipation of competitions? Then the ESL map pack is probably the right choice.

Or are the MatchMaking Lobbies for casual players who want to play on beautifully made maps that represent the game really well? In which case the Nadeo map pack would be an obvious choice.

Maybe the lobby is for both types of players, I don't know. I personally think if Nadeo is hosting the lobbies, they should be hosting Nadeo maps. If anyone is hosting Nadeo maps it should be Nadeo. And if Nadeo isn't hosting Nadeo maps why should anyone else? And if no one is using Nadeo maps, why is Nadeo spending money making them? It seems a bit pointless to me.

Of course playing random new maps with a few friends can be really fun!

Glad we see eye to eye on that.

But in a competitive environment there just aren't room for experimental untested maps in the main map-pool.

Of course that's true. Putting untested maps in a competitive map pool would be irresponsible. There's always room for higher quality maps though. And I think that's where a lot of improvement can be made in future community map packs, even on the part of the authors that already submitted maps. Let's face it though, a lot of authors are really new to this game, really new to the blocks, and if they haven't played TrackMania before... they're also really new to the editor and how everything works. I'm confident that as the years progress, the quality of maps will increase significantly.

What we need is a map-pack (like Nadeo/ManiaActu map-pack) that offers tested and fun maps. I'm not saying that the current ManiaActu map-pack is ideal, far from it.

Tested and fun maps sounds good! But yeah, let's raise the bar.

Just that its in my opinion better than the Nadeo one.

We can agree to disagree on this point.

Thanks for the lively discussion.
I probably don't have much more to add to this topic, and I'm certain I even went way offtopic a few times (sorry about that). So I may not reply here again for a while. I'll be reading though.

tl;dr People should build their own maps and not steal other people's maps. Nadeo's Matchmaking servers should have Nadeo maps. People should play more variety of maps in general. Competitive map packs should be higher quality in the future.

[TheM]

Maybe the lobby is for both types of players, I don't know. I personally think if Nadeo is hosting the lobbies, they should be hosting Nadeo maps. If anyone is hosting Nadeo maps it should be Nadeo. And if Nadeo isn't hosting Nadeo maps why should anyone else? And if no one is using Nadeo maps, why is Nadeo spending money making them? It seems a bit pointless to me.

That was kinda like the point I wanted to make a page back.

I'm confinced that the MatchMaking system isn't there to play Elite "competitively". If you want to play Elite like that, you should make a team and sign-up for some tournament, or just make your own server in which you'll wait for opponents (or something).

In my opinion, the MatchMaking servers are there to bring people together who just want to play Elite without going through the trouble of finding a server with enough players on it. I've found myself repeatedly on those servers and I can tell you with certainty that I'm not there to play "competitively".

Whilst being an ESL admin myself, I want to point out the "ESL Mappack" isn't selected by the adminstaff. Sure, there is some pre-selection, but in the end it's the competitive community who chose which maps they will play in the upcoming months. Those maps might be suitable for competitions, I'm sure that some of them surely aren't suitable for "casual players", who just want to play a round of Elite for fun.

The NADEO mappack is carefully tested and designed to suit casual players (and in my opinion also competitive players) and on that reason they should be used on the official NADEO servers. What's the point of having a Level designer for ShootMania, when his maps aren't even used on the official servers...?

[Rots]

(but I doubt this would work at the moment, there are just too few people on the match making servers. Look at the 10k+ MM-server, it's a ghost town)

Because people is not conscious to join his leveled server... Just as an example: Yesterday in the eve they were 70+ players in the Lobby server 1 (no ladder limited). Most of them were in match so I couldn't check the ladder, but from the 20 players on the lobby waiting for their match to start, half of'em had +10k ... Following the same rule they were an average of 35 players with +10k in the "lowest leveled server".

There should be a 0-10k server and then a 10k-50k. And select a different mappack for each server.

On the 0-10k an official mappack (nadeo maps) and on the 10k-50k a mix maps server (nadeo maps and some official maps)

The NADEO mappack is carefully tested and designed to suit casual players (and in my opinion also competitive players) and on that reason they should be used on the official NADEO servers. What's the point of having a Level designer for ShootMania, when his maps aren't even used on the official servers...?

Indeed

[Ozon]

Listen to Mooon, he speaks the truth.

1 post, joined yesterday.. seems legit

[TMarc]

I'm sorry if I offend you but it wasn't personal, just my opinion of the maps.

You did not offend me, but perhaps only the creator

I'm always open for discussion

This is good, and the discussion above is also good

I don't agree with you on this though. Excursion I can somewhat see as easier just because the map is really big and slows down the game-play greatly, and by that losing everything that is fun. This is in my opinion not a very good first impression of the game if the player is a beginner.

Yeah, you're right. But a absolute beginner first needs to learn how to play and wants to discover the maps, so it would be much more frustrating to get eliminated every few seconds. This also happened to me when I started with ShootMania myself, and I Admit I stopped playing it just because of that for some time.

I understand that you won't change your view of the maps,

Not true, with good and reasonable arguments you can convince me as well
You know, I'm certainly wrong in some cases, and I'm not that stubborn as it might look sometimes

so the best thing to do would probably be to have a beginner server with the Nadeo map-pack. Use a point-limit so people with better rank than ~8000 can't join
(but I doubt this would work at the moment, there are just too few people on the match making servers. Look at the 10k+ MM-server, it's a ghost town)

Yeah.
What they did instead is: players with a higher ladder don't get points anymore on the beginners servers.
The thing is: if you forbid good players to join beginners servers, how would the beginners learn to play?
Assume you want to show your mate how to play, and you don't have an own server atm.
You could recommend to meet on a beginners server and show him how to play.

[Hylis]

I totally agree about the fact that Elite can be played in a more casual way and I totally understand that top competive players finds it useless to play on non top maps. We are working on things that will help to have more options and players. With this, there could be shorter debates, where you can simply have more choices. So, we have to improve, and until then, please consider that both population are useful to the other. Believe me when I say that TMarc, Killaprodtm, Rots, TheM and Eyebo are also part of the community, like someone would argue, and that it is truely positive to thing how to let other players have fun to start with. Competitite players should really take care of the lower level ones, like they themsevlves take care of the whole ecosystem sometimes. Top level are taking the game really seriously, which is also positive, and more especially when they put a constructive energy behind.

[amani]

Listen to Mooon, he speaks the truth.

1 post, joined yesterday.. seems legit

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy

In my mind, the beauty of the game was that there would be a near infinite number of map designs to choose from. I imagined that the measure of the best players would not just be those who had skill and played well, but those who would be able to read the map designs quickly, know different block combinations, know the physics really well, and memorize different routes on thousands of maps, not just a dozen or so.

...

Or are the MatchMaking Lobbies for casual players who want to play on beautifully made maps that represent the game really well? In which case the Nadeo map pack would be an obvious choice.

I see the appeal of playing new maps and not the same ones over and over again. But isn't the nadeo map pack the same as the ESL one just with different maps? What's the point of having a matchmaking server with the nadeo map pack instead of the ESL one? What I would like is two matchmaking servers, one with all kinds of new fun maps being updated regularly, and another with the ESL/tested competitive maps.

[amani]

The matchmaking server is DOWN. Please fix.