New League?

[dreammyw0w]

About the maps :

- I want them to be the same as in ESL or any other competition. ( maybe add 1 different , but thats it. )
- Bad maps can kill the game.

--> The current new official maps could rly be better. A couple of weeks ago they asked me to select/vote for the best maps and now they are released and being played on ESL
BUT.... why wasnt there a "improvement/suggestion phase" for these maps?

The mappers should have collected feedback first and redesigned some shit.
Rust_v4 is a good example. It has been adjusted 4times. ( and probably more )

Im really not happy about the current maps ( some are good , but some are really bad )

[sadzealot]

Sadzealot, your post is usefull in a way (I think), you give mappers informations on how to improve elite maps. Creating maps and playing them is different. In trackmania you can drive your track and see the problems yourself. In shootmania it is a lot harder, so the players need to share theri experience and help the mappers.
It's hard to do both : being a good mapper and a good player.

Maybe try to write down some of your thoughts into a nice informative and educational post/debate. I'm sure you and a lot of Elite players have tons of things to say, which situations you like, and wich you dislike.
I see a lot of complaints like "we don't have a lot of good elite maps", and I don't see any "how to make a good elite map or how to avoid making a bad elite map".

Actually, I did a quick runthrough of Cloudlight (one of the maps that got selected for the new map pack that ESL adopteD) and pointed out some flaws in the design and things that needed changing. This was done with the intent of getting the community to start discussing map design overall. (which didn't happen) I'm not saying I have the final result that "this is bad, this is bad, this is good". It's only my thoughts on what constitutes a problem for many maps in general.

Here's the video if you're interested - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-CaxuCadm4 (and yes, I do sound like I know it all and I sound very harsh in my criticism in the video, but think of it as frustration from being forced to play on that map in the ESL ). The last 30-45 seconds are the most important in the video.

Some of your points could be discussed and refined : attacker losing a lot of time before the fight starts: I think the counterpart is that it can give time to defenders to reach spots. It's not totally bad in all cases.
Here, the positive way would be : how make a long start interesting instead of don't make a long start), other wise you'll end up with all maps obeying the same rules and looking the same.

Ofcourse. As I said above, I don't have the answers, but take something like Daybreak and Cloudlight that does take away 25% of the attackers total attacking time (a bit more in the case of Daybreak). The way the map is built only 10% of it is actually being used, because there's no proper way for defence to position themselves further out on the map, and in fact the strongest defensive positions are near the pole.

For Cloudlight it's another matter, the timings out from spawns are broken so defenders can't even reach one part of the map because attacker gets there first. Then that part of the map should probably be removed alltogether.

Anyway, one of the big problems I see is that people always create maps in a line like this:
A-----------P--B

With A being attacker spawn, P the pole and B being defender spawn. If for isntance maps are made more like this:
A-----B-----P

You totally prevent the need to give defence 15 seconds to get into position. Even better is the way Munglo is designing maps, with the Pole being the center of the map and all the action revolves around the pole the entire time (not right next to the pole ofcourse. Look at Rotaze as an example, despite it being made as a more fun map than a serious tournament map - http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... 33&t=18398)

- Poorly designed areas around pole making it possible for defence to play 3 people near and around pole the entire map (again, leaving only 10% of the map actually being used. Examples: Daybreak, Cloudlight, Dawnville v3, TheCastle)

This is also generic, not very informative. I think the offense is useless.

How is this generic? I think I've pointed out clearly what the problem is, and it goes for maps in general (yes, generic, haha I know ). I've even given examples of maps that suffer from it, and if you know how they're played you'd know exactly what I mean by that argument.

And offense? You mean insult? To that I have to ask a big wtf.

- Extremely static defence playing 3 same positions entire map through with no rotations whatsoever (Examples: Ironfist, Daybreak, Cloudlight, Dawnville)

This is a fact, a neutral statement of the gameplay situation that enables the creator to improve without feeling like "shit".

About this I feel I should comment:

Right now in Elite we have 2 different type of players. We have those that enjoy that type of gameplay with the static defence, and we have those that don't like it and want a more dynamic, rotating defence with more variety. Personally I want the latter (obviously, why else would I consider static defence to be poor map design )

I have no problem with any map packs having multiple type of maps with different gameplay on them, the only problem is that the way almost every map is right now, they all become static and to a big degree, camping around pole. And I think it's hurting not only the gameplay, but also the spectatorvalue of the game.

I'm a player that loves watching streams of tournaments almost as much as playing them, but when I see certain maps be selected for play I just tune out because I know 100% how the defence is gonna be played and how the attack is gonna go. Ofcourse it's still cool to see a good attacker do some amazing shots and moves, but the suspence and excitement isn't there so I don't feel like watching it as much either.

BUT.... why wasnt there a "improvement/suggestion phase" for these maps?

The mappers should have collected feedback first and redesigned some shit.
Rust_v4 is a good example. It has been adjusted 4times. ( and probably more )

This is important I feel. The way Mania-actu goes about for their selectionprocess right now doesn't do this (it feels like). I think they should actually ask for feedback regarding maps and how they're played, what is bad, what is good, and then hand that information over to the creator of the map and allow them to rebuild those parts before the map pack is released.

Sure it won't be the same map as you voted for, but as long as the modifications are cosmetic and minor balance tweaks while the feel and flow of the map remains intact, I see no problem with accepting a slightly different version of what was voted in.

[MuNgLo]

Just want to point out that there could be a way to have maps being tweaked/changed while people use them for cup/league-play and such. The problem comes when the organisation behind is refusing to use updated(fixed) versions. IPL is an excellent example where the map Breach at first went through a couple of rebuilds but when the update was rolled out that broke the speedpad approach for the attacker and messing up the timing completly they took the option of using the old version instead. Result is top tier teams playing a map where attacker needs to stop completly and wait for spam to die out. Less action and suspense.

The problem with this approach is the vagueness of the organisations. Take IPL or ESL and how they manage the mappacks. They list them with the name without version and then uses old broken versions in their mappack file. At least they did before the Mania-Actu mappack went live.
ESL is a page where its a whole sience to manage to even find the mappack since its listed under shootmania rules and to find that, well I googled it to find it. :/

So personally I would love to see an active mappack where maps gets tweaked and updated or even rolled out in favor for others. Even if it under active leagues or so. The individual competition always have the option to set in rules to use certain mapversions but for the normal everyday cups i would like to see flexibility for changes.
maybe try to see wich maps are being vetod most. If 99% of matches veto a certain map then you can easily remove and replace it.


Any ways. I am making some final touches to the maps I've made. Then I'm gonna submit all three for consideration for next community-mappack. Don't really expect any of them to get picked though due to the nature of how different they actually play then the normal "standard" map.

If you want to see latest version you can always go on a Bazinga server and vote for it. Just "/vm bowl" for TheBowl (latest projekt) or "/vm rotaze" or "/vm mole".
Of thoose Mole is the most odd one and theBowl the most normal(kinda). Mole is actually a test to build a concept of 3 minimaps + pole area for defenders to react to the attackers approach and so on. Makes for a really bad public map though .

Anyway OT: I don't think the market is full yet of SM cup/leagues or such. It just needs to be supportive of language and so on. I've given up completly playing anything hosted on a french page.

[dovahk1n]

Few maps are already based on a A---P---B, from the second official pack (with desrever, face-to-face,...) but nobody played it because this system was too hard for defenders.

Cloudlight is quite a good map, because at the start, the pole is maybe far away, but u can take the information on defender's positions. And there are a lot of solutions for the attacker, to go sneaky, to walljump a lot, to attack from the back,..

And u talked about Dawnville, i've played a lot on this map, and only med or low skilled team are attacking from the top, and when they tried it, they never killed us (i won't tell our positions, but there is a solution ). And there are few maps of old mappacks with the possibility to attack from the top : Ironfist, Rust, Paladin, Crossfire, Collided, CastleCrusher,...

And i'm not a troller =) I've talked to a lot of players (including pros), and at the begining they absolutely hated maps like Dawnville, DawnofTheHeroes or Cloudlight, but now they've practiced a lot, they're starting to like those maps.

[sadzealot]

And i'm not a troller =) I've talked to a lot of players (including pros), and at the begining they absolutely hated maps like Dawnville, DawnofTheHeroes or Cloudlight, but now they've practiced a lot, they're starting to like those maps.

First of all, "talking to others who agree with me (including pros)" isn't an argument in any way. In fact is' a lame way discussing anything.

Secondly, liking a map does not make the map any better. People like Daybreak as well, but it's still a terrible terrible map.

And when a map like Dawnville, where the pole is a deathbox (maybe 2 viable chokepoints into the pole, with defence camping behind cover all around the pole), you can like it all you want.

It's still a total failure of a map. And this is again what you don't get. Becuase "I like it, and so do many pros becuase we've practiced it and learned it".

[dreammyw0w]

Some like the maps, some dont. There is always room for improvement. No point in discussing... really.

Im gratefull that there are new maps every x months. All im saying is there should be a phase to test the maps and suggest shit instead of making us vote instantly.

I've read somewhere that mania-actu is aware of this and that they will do this with the next mappool.

As for now? There isnt anything you can do imo. Just veto the maps you dont like and make sure to give ur suggestions for the next mappool.


@HAV : Any news about the new league?

[Rots]

In spain we already have leagues but just national

[dovahk1n]

Lol sadzalot, have u ever created a map ? And if u did, have you send it to mania actu ? And last question, do u even like only a map ?

If people are enjoying the maps, where is the problem. If they're enjoying the maps, maybe its because match on it are great.

[haV]

@HAV : Any news about the new league?

As of yet no! I have a meeting with the CyberGamer league admins on the 2nd of May ((I am good mates with them all^^)). I will have to supply them evidence that SM is a league to invest time and/or money into.

From what I have seen so fair, its looking really good! I have accumulated a lot off feed back so fair from players on mIRC, Xfire, Steam and of course here.

I will be posting more information (here) on the 27th or 28th of April regarding what I will be proposing to CyberGamer. This will range from, League layout, rules, map pool, etc... I wont post everything yet will give you all a taste of what the league will offer you as a player and a team.

[MuNgLo]

Lol sadzalot, have u ever created a map ? And if u did, have you send it to mania actu ? And last question, do u even like only a map ?

If people are enjoying the maps, where is the problem. If they're enjoying the maps, maybe its because match on it are great.

All these points you are trying to make have all been addressed already. Most important of those might be the "people enjoying/liking a map doesn't mean it is a good map"(paraphrased). And to just define a good map it needs to be varied intense gameplay on it. Room for an actual metagame on toplevel gameplay and so on. Looks is by far the least interesting in my personal opinion.(Sry papy ) Having valid attackroutes off the side of the map that actually is useful and working like on daybreak is something that really shouldn't exist on a map meant for playing matches on.

What Sadzealot (and me) wants is better maps that let the gameplay evolve and be varied. This in it self makes for more entertaining time for both playing and watching. Problem with Sadzealot is that he's a bit of an asshole. I am to but I hide it better.