Yet you tried adding weapon selection on defence, which we told you beforehand was a massive failure and would ruin Elite gameplay. You said it needed testing, we said we didn't need to test it. We tested it and you changed it back.Hylis wrote:I totally agree that we must prevent the game of being static and with prevalant defensive strategies. It is why I suggest things to improve this, instead of blocking new ideas that would avoid to move the game forward.
We got it right.
Now there's the fast reload on kills (oh I'm sorry, eliminations, I forgot how sensitive we are about this subject). Which as Sephis (And others) have pointed out, makes the gameplay more defensive and more static (And Elite already suffers massively from being very defensive and static on defence.
So you can talk all you want about 'new ideas' and 'moving forward' but it seems you have no clue about your own gamemode (weapon selection basically proved that) or what is necessary to improve and evolve the gameplay. You're just throwing in a bunch of cool-sounding things in hopes it will do something.
Really? If anything, things have been tested and tried out and you've gotten feedback for it. The problem as I see it is that you don't listen to a lot of the feedback because you've already made up your mind that it's something you want/don't want in the game.Hylis wrote:One of the main difficulty to please you is that nothing new is really ever tested. So, it's too often better like it was before. Practice, training, competitions need also to use new gameplay in order to help the game move forward.
Who is this 'you' you're referring to? I was never against microjumps. I have always been against multihit. I have always been against 3dot laser.Hylis wrote:You were against microjump, now you see many people for it.
You were for multihit, now it arrives
You were against the 3 dots laser, while I still believe that it is much better with it. Have you changed your mind on this?
I'm sure Munglo feels differently about some things, and Sephis, Dreammy and PkSens feels differently about others again. Stop thinking everyone has the same taste. What you should do is when you hear a suggestion is sit down with your team and ask the question:
"Ok, we got a suggestion for something to add to the game, how will this affect gameplay of Elite? Ok, what about Joust? Ok, Storm in general then?" (Notice I said gameplay. The gameplay must ALWAYS be the focus when doing changes, otherwise you add stuff like weapon selection or fast reload which both hurt the gameplay of Elite)
And maybe you should considering adding different stuff for different modes. I'm not so sure this philosophy of having the exact same thing for every gamemode is such a good thing. Remember when you added 100% reload on nucleus after laser-denial? Do you remember the outcry from people playing Siege saying it had basically ruined Siege?
Yeah, that's why you should sit down and ask those questions. Some thing can be deduced beforehand without testing.
So you're making a forced switch onto B3 which many competitive players consider a joke and will make them quit the game? Yeah, great thinking Hylis. Wave goodbye to many of your active players, that's the way to move forward and test your game.Hylis wrote:It requires tests to succesfully move forward, after some steps. We can not jump from one perfect gameplay to another without some intermediary situations. The B2 is flawed on various points (MJ & Bugged WJ) Latest may have it's flaw like you describe on the instant reload, we shall see.
And has already been stated here, the reason the fast reload on kills is bad is because if messes with the gameplay.
You see, here's your problem: You don't know how your own gamemode works (reworking of your old maps showcased you're only interested in the "new cool things", like showing off new blocks, rather than trying to improve the gameplay). Or atleast, that's how it seems often. (remember weapon selection on defence?)
And because you don't know how it works you can't tell beforehand if something is good or bad for the gameplay. Many of us can, and the reason we don't want fast reload on kills (sorry again, eliminations) is because it messes with defenders and forces teams to play even more passive and defensive.
This is easily seen before implementation. Yet here you are again, insisting that it needs to be tested.
Again it boils down to being able to see beforehand that something is good, something is bad and some things might actually need testing before you can tell. Fast reload on eliminations (see, third time's the charm) does not need testing. We know what it does and we know how it'll affect gameplay.Hylis wrote:But enabling test is the most important thing to achieve and so to have competitions on new type of gameplay and maps. Otherwise, it is too sad to avoid to maybe improve the game like we did earlier with progressive jump, wall jump, denies & others.
If it's one thing I have an issue with when it comes to your way of doing things it's this randomness of what you add to the game. And you guys insisting on keeping the same enviroment over many different gamemodes.
And as always you keep going on about "how buggy the B2 walljumps" are and you completely overlook what they do for the gameplay. And if gameplay isn't your main focus, but how "well coded" something is, then there's no hope for this game. And it was like 5 months since you first said you were looking into improving B3 walljumps. Nothing has been done so far. Really? What are you spending your time doing if not improving on the core mechanics of movement? (And if you seriously think B3 WJ is an improvement over B2 WJ because they're "better coded" or "not affected by geometry" then... I'm at a loss for words. Gameplay must always come first, always!)
So here's a quick rundown of how I feel about some of the things added (And taken away) to the game.
Multi-Hit laser!
It's terrible. It's pure random if you get it or not, and it can cause terrible situations to happen (Imagine attacker with 1 armor diving pole vs 2-3 defenders, shoots one as he dives and get a +2 or +3 and wins the round? Imagine that happening in a key moment of any tournament. You think the players losing because of it will feel they lost because of skill or because of a random mechanic in the game? Imagine it being the winning round in the finals @ ESWC)
Fast reload on eliminations!
Again, this has been explained above why it's bad
Microjumps!
There are pros and cons for B2 and B3 versions of this, but one thing we can agree on: Microjumps made the game and gameplay faster (again we come back to the gameplay, which has to be the sole focus when discussing any changes to Elite).
The reasons you gave for nerfing them was 1) hardware-dependant and 2) macroabusers. None of them had anything to do with gameplay. (Also I'll have you know I have a mouse that isn't easy to do microjumps with, atleast not consistently, and I suck at doing them, but I'm still for microjumps as they worked in B2 because I'm looking at this from a gameplay-perspective a lot more than what you seem to be doing judging from your posts on the forums. Usually our answers are anything but the actual gameplay, but more arbitrary stuff like macros, geometry of walls, hardware etc)
Walljumps!
B2 walljumps are complex, flexible and powerful and probably the most fun part about the game (for me and some others). You say they're random, but after you've done them a few times they're not that random. Sure it can be a bit tricky to do the most complex jumps 10 times in a row, but if it was piss easy then it wouldn't be any skill involved.
I wouldn't mind B2 walljump-system being more consistent and/or not dependant on geometry of walls, but I'll take that over any nerfed system that will come in the future. Because I've noticed a theme in your replies on this forum, and that is "We gotta make it more accessible to new players" which ultimately means "We gotta simplify things for new players".
Current B3 walljumps are a joke. Boring, takes no skill and slows you down (if you're going over a certain speed and perform them, they do slow you down because apparently B3 walljumps have a max speed on them)
Staminajumpblocks!
You want to talk about randomness, then talk about these. If you're an attacker you have more stamina and can thus jump higher on them than defenders which have less stamine, but that's not the big problem: The big problem is how bloody fast they drain stamina. It's nearly impossible to time how high you want to jump, yet this is fine but microjumps aren't? Talk about being inconsistent with changes (one is added to B3, one is removed).
Powerwalljumps!
These are a joke, a joke I say. They do nothing but shoot you further out from the wall. Oh, and they're put on a special block, so it's obvious when they're gonna take place. So once you see someone jumping in towards this special block, you know he's either gonna not do a powerwalljump or he's gonna do a powerwalljump and you know exactly the path he's gonna take because they're always the same.
A better idea would be to make powerwalljumps possible on all walls, but make it into a special move you can perform. Atleast this way they could be used anywhere, be a surprise and might need some skill to pull off. (atleast when you do them would require great skill, not necessarily the move itself)
Bouncing rockets!
This was in B2 for a while, and it was great fun. And it added more depth to Elite as a gamemode, but it was never tweaked properly. Instead you removed them and added them on a special block, making the use of them very obvious (since they can only be bounced on a special block). The only way to not have them be situational and obvious would be to build maps mainly out of that type of block (Which would make them look awful and then PapyChampy would be sad, because he was all about maps having to look nice as well).
I think you messed up here. They got removed in the same update as you brought us weapon selection and one of the arguments were "we're looking to add more complexity and depth to Elite gameplay". Then why'd you remove bouncing rockets back then instead of tweaking them?
I don't see why you couldn't have tweaked how bounce-rockets worked more before deciding on this change. You took away depth and skill by doing so. Which is what you are also doing with MJ and WJ. And then you had this great argument about weapon selection (which was a massive fail) about trying to improve gameplay and adding more depth to Elite. See how you take away some things that added depth and fail at adding more depth?
(End of explaining changes)
Notice how I've actually described why some things are bad and better ways of doing it. Will you listen? Probably not, because the theme ever since march/april has been "We've decided on this, so we're going with this"
The only thing you really listen for these days is the Wishlist-thread, and it's from there you got stuff like fast multi-hit laser.
One thing you have to remember Hylis is the following: What works for Storm, Royal, Heroes, Joust etc might not necessarily make for good additions to Elite.
And the same could be said for everything. Wanting to have the same enviroment for all modes might not necessarily be the best thing to do. Especially as gameplay for each mode will develop over time and specialize. Kind of what it has in Elite. It has grown and people have gotten better and learned new things. You say you're moving forward, but the sad part is you don't have learn anything new in B3 compared to B2.
And that alone tells us B3 is simplified and dumbed down. Which will also do something to the gameplay. It will probably make it slower and more boring to both play and watch. And you should be careful about wanting to test something like that, especially considering how hard the current competitive community has responded to your wanting to force B3 on us to "test things". You might not get as much feedback as you have. Also notice that some of the more active people are people that dislike this forced change. Some of them also play at the highest levels in Elite (no, not talking about myself here, but more like sephis, dreamy, pksens etc)
It be kinda awesome.