TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

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bandit_one
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TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by bandit_one »

Hey Players,

despite of all the hate and flames along the past because of decreasing online players, the talk about TM2 being not eSport-usable, etc. I started to think about a more positive approach. Sorry, if there's a similar thread somewhere...

So I was wondering: What can be done to bring TM back into the (bigger) eSport world?

I'm no one special: I was playing TMN in the past for a couple of years, together with United from time to time. With TM2 I wanted to increase my skill level a bit more to start competing in some eSport competitions, because TM2 is more fun to me and nowadays I put a lot of time into it (even if it still takes a lot of it). At least I don't care too much about less or more players: If there's at least just 1 other player and myself, we can do a competition! :thumbsup:

But at these times the number of players at some eSport cups (like ZOTAC) are getting less players, many people say that TM2 is not too attractive for the eSport and all that, because the so-called "eSport-pushers" like some potential sponsors together with Nadeo etc. hesitate to bring TM2 into the the bigger frame. That's maybe right, but I think it's not a matter of a new environment like a new stadium and all that. No matter if it's TM or Need For Speed with its arcade style, Forza with its simulator style, etc.: Fact is, that in the eSport sector it's very hard for a racing game to get more attraction. At the same time that's funny, because the numbers of sold racing games are much higher than a lot of the "famous" eSport games like Starcraft. Sure, not every TM player wants to enter an eSport competition, but the relationships of the sales to the users are very strange. Also there are more racing games sold for consoles like the PS3 etc. then for PCs, which are still not used for online gaming as much as PCs do.

I can understand Frost's (and some other's) frustration a lot, but we have to see: TM is not Starcraft. Sure, in the past TMN was in the top 4/5 of the so-called "known eSport games", but unfortunately that won't work anymore. Making a living through TM in eSport is not possible. Racing games played at eSport competitions in general (TM, Forza etc.) are decreasing a lot, and I think the reasons are very wide and diverse.

The most important thing to be attractive for the eSport as a game seems to be (so I found out as a marketing working guy): It has to be entertaining for the spectators, so that events could bring up more sponsors a.k.a. money. Sometimes it seems to be also a matter of the rules to low the "entertaining" factor of a racing game: At Forza (a racing simulator) the spectators decreased rapidly after the "collisions off" rule (no collisions with other cars, like at TM). No crashes, no entertainment. This is how the crowd works since the first chariot races in the ancient rome. :roll:

On the other side, take a look at Crazyracing Kartrider, which is played in Korea by millions online, together with some bigger eSport teams etc.: Simple as Mario Kart, easy to understand and all that (and to me ugly as hell and not really comparable to any TM title), but why has this game so many players? Maybe because it's Korea (WAY more game players than in Europe) and - speaking from the view of the typical spectator - maybe because of it's game play (you can shoot the opponent, etc.). Also on the other side something else seems strange: Racing games are very easy for people to understand and to follow live without being a total noob. I still can't (and won't) get how SCS or Dota works exactly to watch it with fun and excitement, and it's also not too easy to follow an 4vs4 at CS at first.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time for some irony: :D
Following now all the aspects at the actual "bigger" eSport, the future for a new TM title should have:

- the cars could crash against each other + a funny (not too real) damage model
- you can shoot or manipulate the opponent with a cannon or a baguette ;)
- longer maps, multilaps with changing obstacles
- points for "hardest drift", "best crash" and "fastest kill"
- 2 player modus: driving AND mapping at the same time!
- 3 different races (humans, maniacs, frosts)
- customizable avatar figure
- editors for maps and cars like today

...and it shall be called: "TMwar" ! :twisted:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, OK... :D
So what is left to do? Here are some of my thoughts:

For us as players who want to play & compete:
To drive, on and on. To have fun, even on empty servers and tiny comps with just you and your 3 friends.To build up own cups like the Planets Millions Cup. To feed the community however we can. Trying to give the game developers recently feedback about what's going on and what could be done better, because they don't look to close to the players anymore (to get in touch as directly as it can be, not just as a thread in a forum). Even some LAN sessions like in the good ol' days! But at least, it belongs to people from the community to persuade event organisators, sponsors etc. to make something happen (@ Frost: OK, Nadeo sucks, but why don't ask your own sponsor to make/sponsor an TM2 event?). And at least: If nobody does something for you, you have to do it yourself.

For the money-givers, event managers, potential sponsors etc.:
See the potential. Push it more. Make an event interesting for the players AND for the spectators. Throw in some prices (it hasn't to be a real BMW M5 like at Forza some years ago! Or maybe yes? ;) ). Follow the positive fact, that racing is easy to understand, even for kids (you don't have to know how many points a Zerg attack brings). Work together with real motor sport companies doing some events. Use it as a senseful marketing tool. With the history of Trackmania you can rely easily on some great years of successful competitions (even if it's nearly over nowadays). Look at the numbers of sales: There ARE players out there who want to compete, there IS a community full of energy. You as the organistors have just to find a way to make it.

A short example: In skateboarding in the early 90s (which was a lot smaller than today, less skaters, 500 $ 1st price at a pro contest for guys like Tony Hawk!) we had the same problem (I skate since '91), until the bigger events came up. With the X-Games event (hated at first but than later accepted by the skaters) skateboarding went more and more into the media and also a lot bigger. Starting as "fun sport" for kids and outsiders, skateboarding is taken serious nowadays like nearly every other sport with bigger sponsors and 100.000 $ prices at pro contests.

For Nadeo as a company it makes now finally (and financial) more sense to step into the eSport arena with a shooter and a strategy/quest game, which's great I think (and also TONS of work), but I hope that they wouldn't forget us one day: The racers!


Drive On!

*bandit
metoxys
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Re: TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by metoxys »

bandit_one wrote:Time for some irony: :D
Following now all the aspects at the actual "bigger" eSport, the future for a new TM title should have:

- the cars could crash against each other + a funny (not too real) damage model
- you can shoot or manipulate the opponent with a cannon or a baguette ;)
- longer maps, multilaps with changing obstacles
- points for "hardest drift", "best crash" and "fastest kill"
- 2 player modus: driving AND mapping at the same time!
- 3 different races (humans, maniacs, frosts)
- customizable avatar figure
- editors for maps and cars like today

...and it shall be called: "TMwar" ! :twisted:
Do not want.
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jonthekiller
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Re: TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by jonthekiller »

bandit_one wrote: - 2 player modus: driving AND mapping at the same time!
It's the best point :yes:
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laurens92
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Re: TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by laurens92 »

Well, I hope TM² gets higher in the eSports.
Though we had already had some great events; Alienware, A&G LAN, TM2L and Zotac.
So let's go on with it, I hope the bigger teams with bigger capital will come soon.
Professional TM² Canyon player, member of Team Awsomniac.
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FrostBeule
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Re: TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by FrostBeule »

bandit_one wrote:I can understand Frost's (and some other's) frustration a lot, but we have to see: TM is not Starcraft. Sure, in the past TMN was in the top 4/5 of the so-called "known eSport games", but unfortunately that won't work anymore. Making a living through TM in eSport is not possible. Racing games played at eSport competitions in general (TM, Forza etc.) are decreasing a lot, and I think the reasons are very wide and diverse.
We're not Starcraft no, but TMN is still an esport and it's still very much active as one. for example right now the EMS/CAP season is taking place with almost 70 teams and around 900 players particiating in total. For 6 years TMN has built a legacy with 6 different world champions in the game (with 5 of them still active today). So it still works, it's just that Nadeo have in my opinion made some terrible decisions in how they have handled this esport. The biggest mistake was to try and replace TMN with TM2 which is a completely different game with a different philosophy and format attached to it in compare to TMN which in my opinion got a much better suited format as an esport. They also haven't tried to co-operate with the esports scene whatsoever which i think is very important and which you see in alot of other esports these days such as SC2 and LoL where both Blizzard and Riot keep an active conversation with the top players and other important figures in the esports scene to create the best possible esport out of their respective games.

It's also very important to note that TMN is still much more popular than TM2, as a game, but also as an esport. there's still many top esports organizations present in the game and there's alot of activity.
TMN is 6 years old now and Nadeo aren't working on it anymore + they restricted it in a very bad way with the freezone system which is far from perfect. in my opinion, TMN still got alot of potential left, and there's alot that can be improved in it.
I think we would've had a much better situation right now for Trackmania in esports if Nadeo had continued to build on TMN and the esports legacy it contains. i think it's much better to focus "esports" on just 1 thing for several reasons, and that 1 thing is, and has been for 6 years, TMN. but instead we now got this very strange situation with 2 trackmania games being present in esports. 1 contains the majority of the players and all the esports history. another is by force attempting to replace that game even though it's completely different and almost no one is playing it. it's not a good situation at all, and if some different decisions had been taken, then i'm pretty confident we would've been in a great spot right now as THE esports racing game in the world. but instead we have taken a step backwards.

And while it's not possible to make a living through the game in esports (yet), there's still alot of people under contracts and salaries right at this moment. me included.
bandit_one wrote:On the other side, take a look at Crazyracing Kartrider, which is played in Korea by millions online, together with some bigger eSport teams etc.: Simple as Mario Kart, easy to understand and all that (and to me ugly as hell and not really comparable to any TM title), but why has this game so many players? Maybe because it's Korea (WAY more game players than in Europe) and - speaking from the view of the typical spectator - maybe because of it's game play (you can shoot the opponent, etc.). Also on the other side something else seems strange: Racing games are very easy for people to understand and to follow live without being a total noob. I still can't (and won't) get how SCS or Dota works exactly to watch it with fun and excitement, and it's also not too easy to follow an 4vs4 at CS at first.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Kartrider being played as an esport in the "only-boost" format? where you drift to gain more boosts. as far as i know they don't compete in the items mode, but i could be wrong. but anyway, i think a big part why Kartrider became such as success in Asia as an esport is probably because the developers understood esports very well and took the right decisions. if i would have to guess, they probably looked at how starcraft worked in south korea and attached a similiar model to it.

bandit_one wrote:For us as players who want to play & compete:
To drive, on and on. To have fun, even on empty servers and tiny comps with just you and your 3 friends.To build up own cups like the Planets Millions Cup. To feed the community however we can. Trying to give the game developers recently feedback about what's going on and what could be done better, because they don't look to close to the players anymore (to get in touch as directly as it can be, not just as a thread in a forum). Even some LAN sessions like in the good ol' days! But at least, it belongs to people from the community to persuade event organisators, sponsors etc. to make something happen (@ Frost: OK, Nadeo sucks, but why don't ask your own sponsor to make/sponsor an TM2 event?). And at least: If nobody does something for you, you have to do it yourself.
why would i want to actively try and get a sponsored TM2 event? but if you meant TMN then i can understand. but to direct what you're saying, i definitely agree that there needs to be an active conversation with the developers and the esports scene, and that the people from the community create their own events and not just rely on others to do it. which is something we see alot in TMN these days. I personally do alot of promotion for events and stuff like that. just follow me on facebook if you want to see proof of that.

bandit_one wrote:For Nadeo as a company it makes now finally (and financial) more sense to step into the eSport arena with a shooter and a strategy/quest game, which's great I think (and also TONS of work), but I hope that they wouldn't forget us one day: The racers!
I agree!
serujio
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Re: TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by serujio »

bandit, it seems you are not too well informed about the competitions in Canyon.

Besides Zotac Cup, soon the Plantronics Cup, giving a headset as prize, and the ET´s Giant Cup will be starting. Do you have enough time to train for Zotac Cup and these other 2 competitions? For the european guys there are still TML2 and ESL cups.

Want more?

The Planet Millions Cup that you said, the WTC Cup, and the Smurfs Cup(every week), giving lots of planets as prize. And maybe more that I´m not aware of.

And if you want to participate even more, you can be an organizer of the competitions, joining ESL, they need you. :thumbsup:
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bandit_one
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Re: TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by bandit_one »

hey serujio,

I know, there's still a lot going on (I was participating with my clan at the TWL earlier this year, together with some clan wars) and all of you guys who are organizing events and leagues get my biggest respect! :yes: Without you there only would be some servers with less more action than today.
When I wrote this article above I was just comparing TM with the actual "bigger" esport games like SC and all that, together with a little (ironic and objective) thinking about the reasons, why TM is not so big, etc. I know, there are lots of competitions going on (prizes or not - who cares? 8-) ), and that's great! :mrgreen:
tcq
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Re: TM2 and the eSport case - solutions?

Post by tcq »

Just to inform you, the TGC1 is on the roll :)
Find all information in this thread. http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... 68&t=11037
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