Macros, macros everywhere.

[TORAKI]

To Hylis/Nadeo

I want to put some perspective in for this horrible decision that you've made.
...

TLDR: Don't nerf the minijumps (but you knew that anyway)

THIS.

I
F*****G
LOVE
U
CASPA

[Hylis]

@Hylis : I dont know what to say for now . You make good arguements, but yeah... for now ill just stick with B2. Im waiting for the future & cant wait to see with what alternative you come up with.
If I have a good idea I'll post it here, as always.

Thanks for this type of answer.

The solution we are working on at the moment is doing well so far. We are working not on 'micro jump' but on the 'small jump' like I stated earlier.

to detail, I will give you average key values of the three gameplay (at micro jump era, after and the upcoming one)

time of double click - duration of jump

A. Before
10 ms - 200 ms
20 ms - 200 ms
30 ms - 200 ms
40 ms - 200 ms
50 ms - 500 ms
60 ms - 600 ms
70 ms - 700 ms

B. After
10 ms - 500 ms
20 ms - 500 ms
30 ms - 500 ms
40 ms - 500 ms
50 ms - 500 ms
60 ms - 600 ms
70 ms - 700 ms

C. Upcoming
10 ms - 350 ms
20 ms - 350 ms
30 ms - 350 ms
40 ms - 400 ms
50 ms - 500 ms
60 ms - 600 ms
70 ms - 700 ms

In A, you had 300 ms of difference for a 10 ms click difference at 40 ms.
In B, it was not enough using small clicks and was too slow
In C, you have 50 ms of difference for a 10 ms click difference at 40 ms.

I believe it is close to first Kraguesh reaction: small jump is to too big even if nerfing the micro jump may be cool. Translation from: "A mon avis, le nerf de quelques milimètres en mettant un pallier peut etre cool, maintenant le monter aussi haut que j'ai pu le voir en storm casse le rythme"

Kabal, tx for the info about bunny hoping script history of CS. I know that another key would make the game faster (maybe less skilled) and we have tested in the past. I liked it well for the feeling of multiple keys action, but it was finally decided not to include this additionnal key (even more difficult debate than micro jump) So, the hardware will unfortunately still have an advantage with the progressive small jump, but of a much lesser scale than before and in a more progressive way (50 ms difference instead of 300 ms for 10 ms difference of click time)

Caspa, you made a solid and long post and I did not answered it. I think I dismissed it because the foundation of Storm were missed on a very important point, when you ask "This is the part of the community that drives the game forward - casuals just bring up the numbers. Who are you going to listen to more?" You really need to look after having more than the top 100 of Elite in the game. The goal is to keep the game as skilled as possible while enabling a maximum number of players to enjoy it, steps by steps. Put a 2 meters step, and only abnormally skilled players will accept to climb it. Only one step can be a wall for many players. Not for you, because your skill is amazing, but don't let your friends behind. It is like mountain climbing. Anybody can slowly walk on the top of a mountain that is endlessly high, as long as there is not a wall of 2 meters in the way. Do not see the casual as your ennemies, but your allies for real success. Once it is accepted that it is the holy grail for future skilled FPS, then we can solidly resume discussions. I can't answer all posts, especially when they are so big, but I appreciate your concern and implication to make it, of course. So, to answer your question: "Well, looks like my efforts have once again been ignored. What does it take to get your attention Hylis?" This is my main to answer you. Somebody even told me at the studio that I should have answered you before. So, we listen to you. And he told me when I was watching a VOD of you with him, so we even watch you, and I even watched you on this week end GO4 semi final. So, I am 'following' you and don't think I am not listening. Debating is longer and I have to be careful about who I would enter debate. You also have a team mate that is too much about hate in my oppinion, so it is not making good into your favor. I am not gollum ^_^ But the main point is that I seek players that do not oppose wide audience & top skilled players from each FPS in the world. It is rare to find, but this principle is my precious

[Hylis]

And btw, it looks simple, but it's much more sophisticated to obtain than it appears since it requires to deal with much more matters than only the time which is a consequence of physical stuff that have to deal with constraints and other cases. Days of work and thinking in an efficient gameplay labotary.

[MuNgLo]

Hylis, when u are talking about "duration of jump" I take it you are talking about how long the +jump will be active in the physics(in rough words) and not the time from pressing jump and until you land again.
Looking forward to getting to test it and I do hope you get it out as soon as possible.

My issue and thought about it is that it really is a fallout effect from the physics in the engine. The way characters move vertically feels a bit like a cartoon where you can run over a cliff and hang there for a bit before u fall down. Not really how it works but I think especially the point where you in a jump go from up to downwards motion is a bit floaty and long. Not enough to really whine about but heres the point I'm trying to make.
In a minimal jump the jump basically only consists of that up-to-down point. Can it be that it infact has such a big inpact that it makes the minimaljump way slower then you intended?
As it is now you barely get any air but it feels like someone is holding you up with wires like a Hong Kong action flick.

It's just a thought though.

[Hylis]

Hylis, when u are talking about "duration of jump" I take it you are talking about how long the +jump will be active in the physics(in rough words) and not the time from pressing jump and until you land again.

(...)

it feels like someone is holding you up with wires like a Hong Kong action flick.

I am talking about the time until you land.

Yes, there are some specific physics there or there to make the movement the way it is. It could be to avoid little rocks for example. Or some stuff to enable you to follow a variating ground without being propelled into the air etc. There is not one single good solution since the legs of and intentions of humans are controlled with more degree of freedom than just a key. We are trying to make a gameplay that adapts a lot of situations in order to enable production and custom things / combination to work as best as possible.

[MuNgLo]

ok. Oh and btw, small rock physics in the game is awful. As it is now you will run around them every time since they are such a movementbreaker and you can lose all control on what looks like a small rock. Since they are on grass and stamina is so precious on grass you just can't take the risk of getting close to them.

[aceez]

dunno why, but removing mjs makes me feel it will not take to something good

[GioPrinzy]

hylis,i think that jump will be more random cause there are 5 different jumps that u can make.....and u cant know when u make a 350ms jump and a 400ms jump.......i think that the best way is to set 3 different jumps at the most,a 200ms jump,a 500ms jump and one from 700ms...then:

10 ms - 200 ms
20 ms - 200 ms
30 ms - 200 ms
40 ms - 500 ms
50 ms - 500 ms
60 ms - 500 ms
70 ms - 700 ms

About the macros,i think that u can make a macro even if u change these features
P.S.:sry for any english mistakes

[UrinStein]

I don't think you got the point here...

Since macros cannot be prevented at all, all Nadeo can do is limit repectively remove the advantage using macros would bring. That tiny, tiny jump you got when only tipping the jump button a bit could be "macroed" even if you had to tip it for 5 ms only. It is no use when it comes to macros the only help is totally removing that 200ms jump.

So basically what you did with your suggestion comapred to the original configuration (A) is making the MJ harder to perform and therefore making the macro-problem even bigger.

The only reasons for changing the jumping in the first place were the "macroing" and the MJ being to hard to perform for a bunch of people.
Now what exactly do want to achieve with that setup you are suggesting?


Also I figured I might report how I am experiencing the change of the jumping:
Before I just had to double click on my mouse and I would be sprinting almost instantly. It wasn't too hard after I eventually learned to use my mouse.
The change to the 500ms Jump was a bad awakening for me because whenever I double clicked, trying to sprint, I would lose a third of my stamina mid-air. In Elite as a defender it is even half the stamina bar you lose.
If you want to start an optimal sprint you have to jump and then time your second click so that you do not blow out your stamina.
It will definitely take some practice to get the timing though it does not make any sense until this subject is finished and jumping is fix. Actually I doubt that the change really making anything easier than before. Double jumps and wasted stamina have cost me quite some lives so far...