Debate on TM² Canyon in eSport

[FrostBeule]

What i mean is the following. See it from the side of the developer. You created 7 different environments to aim at different liking. Only one of them was designed for esport (here i don't argue with you, because it's a fact). The one for esports was a huge success because it was easy to learn, hard to master, free for all and directly from the start part of a great tournament (in this case the ESWC). Later on they tried to connect all communities into one big, with TMU and the forever update. But this was spoiled because nearly no one bought the game, because there were nearly no restrictions for this one.

I think it was spoiled because TMU was a different concept from TMN, that's really the main thing i don't like with nadeo: their unwillingness to seperate their games. And it's only becoming worse with maniaplanet where SM QM and TM2 are all considered 1 game. I just don't think that's a very realistic to be successful because people like different things and want to continue to like those things and not be forced on doing something else.

but to come back to the mania planet principle. If they would really release a super stadium, do you think anyone will buy it, without a shutting down of TMN beforehand?

I actually think the best way is keep having this ”super stadium” be a free-to-play game just like it is now with ads and perhaps the ability to buy cosmetic stuff or restrict it alá freezone (but with the difference of not making it harder for people to play the core game. Im speaking about all that addfavourite mumbo-jumbo). I have no doubt if Nadeo plays their card properly that the TMN community would welcome this new addition with open arms. But it gotta be made in the same concept, that's for sure. and it definitely would be a smart thing to do considering how popular TMN is and was. right now i'd say the game is still in a "beta-phase" and there's just huge possibilities to take this concept further. i dream about it often.

And if they shut down TMN, do you think anyone would be interested in buying the other environments (e.g canyon/valley). The best would be, if the players which played TMN bought TM2 environments, even if they don't like it (on one hand to support nadeo for the great game they did with the free nations and on the other one to speed up the relase/development of a successor of stadium).
And this is, where my argumentation comes back to the esport level. If you make TM2 a success, you will get your new stadium (at least this is what i think).

See, this sounds good, but i actually don't believe anymore that Nadeo would do something like that if people like me supported TM2 wholeheartedly. I think Hylis especially have proven that he doesn't like TMN at all and that he would much rather continue on this other concept he started before TMN with TMO and TMS. So for me i think the ”counter-strike 1.6” path is much better for the TMN community and then just hope that Nadeo realizes what their biggest success was and what brought them to where they are now.

Afterwards i didn't see a lot of action done by ubisoft (as Hylis said, the WCG put TM2 in the vote without their intervention).

WCG picked TM2 because they thought it was the right sequel to TMN. You must understand that the organizers only know so much. The reality is that the word ”Trackmania” to most people outside of the trackmania world only means TMN. Surely Hylis must've known this and that is why we see TM2 instead of TMN in the votings.

Sure i belive it, but you need to see the development of TMN on the larger time scale, not the short distance (e.g. the next 1-2 years). And NFS is able to get nearly each year new game which is used in competitions.

NFS is not a good esports game because it gets a new edition almost every year. This is one of the reasons why i think TMN has established itself as THE esports racing game over NFS because there's a stability in it that i think is much needed if you want a successful esports game. This is also why i dont believe that the concept of TMO TMS and TM2 works for esports. If it did then TMO and TMS wouldve been esports games before TMN came around.

oh okay, sorry about my wrong misinformation. I was talking about the german section, which lost it's EPS. Didn't know about the European scene. My fault.

Speaking about the german section: http://www.esl.eu/eu/tmnf/#/de/tmnf/news/181362/ as you can see, it's also doing well post-TM2.

The concept isn't really different. Both are racing games. The one was designed to be played on the ESWC. The other one was designed to be played on all competition which want to host a tournament on it.

The concepts are extremely different imo as ive explained already before. And yes Nadeo made TMN for ESWC, but that's not what it is today. And what do you mean, that TMN isn't designed to be played in esports events? That's exactly what it is designed as, and it works great.

Okay, get your point. But to the "finalist-mode", as far as i remember they introduced it, but no one was forced to play it. Some did, some did not (e.g the ESL developed this special mode fore their games) and it worked great. In TM, it's not about what the people get, but what they can make out of TM. And this possibility is even bigger in TM2, than it was in TM1. Sure there are many things which needs to be fixed (e.g. still problems with the spectator mode and no tire traces on the relay servers), but overall it's going into the right direction.

Exactly, the finalist-mode is hardly used these days. Basically only in ESWC where Nadeo/Hylis still got alot of influences and can control the rules. As you said, the community developed its own tools how to play and i really like the ESL Cup Mode. Sadly it's not used so much, which i think is because of it being too closely attached to ESL. I tried talking with the developer of it to release it for everyone to use, but he wasnt keen on that idea sadly. And yes there are many things which needs to be fixed, but i think they should be fixed in TMN where it would benefit the most. But of course it should also be fixed in TM2.

phew, ok that was all tcq, now for iceman (i won't direct everything as i believe i did that for some already to tcq):

That's a lame excuse and you know it. I really don't see how coming into a thread and saying "wrong game" is constructive in any forum, unless your goal was to make yourself look like an ass.

Honestly i visit many forums where the guidelines ARE much more liberal and where discussions can form out of anything. Yes the author didn't ask opinions about it, but he also didn't say you couldn't write stuff like this. But yes, i definitely shouldn't start my discussions with one-liners, it's definitely a weakness that i have you're right about that.

Get out there and promote your game of choice - you have a sponsor, you have the limelight - USE IT POSITIVELY.

I believe that's exactly what i'm doing. You only have to follow me on facebook to see how much i do of that.

But yeah you're probably right, i should just ignore TM2 and focus entirely on TMN. but at the same time, expressing my opinions is also important, but maybe i shouldn't do it in a TMO/TMS/TM2 forum where it's me vs 10 other guys.

however it simply got old for me. You have to face the facts, TMN is ancient in the realm of video games; eventually interest will wane no matter how hard you try.

Well that's just like your opinion man, as the quote goes. I haven't gotten tired after 5 years. Sure i would definitely welcome new features etc etc, but the core gameplay for me is still very enjoyable. And as you can see, there's still alot more people who play this game over TMU or TM2 5 YEARS after its release. I think that means something. and please don't come with the "it's only popular coz it's free" arguments. a game isn't this popular for so long just because it's free.

Have you ever actually been a part of another esport community? EVERY SINGLE minute change that's made to DOTA/HON/LOL is followed by thousands of people raging on the forums at the developers. And many of these changes are made without any previous support from the players. It's this way in many other communities as well, a percentage of players will dislike any change. Nadeo will continue to do what they think is in their best interest, and as much as you don't like it, you can't do a thing about it other than present an argument as to what would be in their best interest. At this point, do you think they want to listen to a word you have to say? No, and that's completely due to your negative attitude. Even if you're too blind to see it, you're hurting your own cause.

Actually the MOBA community is the only esports community i don't follow so yeah maybe you're right about that though you don't give any examples. But if you look at communities like Starcraft they have a much better esports approach to it where they listen and respect the esports community, and as a result they have a very healthy environment. Nadeo will probably continue to do their thing, but i see no point for me to follow them down their path. At the end of the day it's about what you love to do and you just follow that path and try to enjoy your life as much as you can and that's what i aim to do.

[iceman23]

Honestly i visit many forums where the guidelines ARE much more liberal and where discussions can form out of anything. Yes the author didn't ask opinions about it, but he also didn't say you couldn't write stuff like this. But yes, i definitely shouldn't start my discussions with one-liners, it's definitely a weakness that i have you're right about that.

No one is trying to censor you (I am completely against that myself), it's just that we expect you to respect others opinions and of the organizers of the tournament. The discussion didn't "form out of anything", you knew exactly what you were doing and forced it to happen. And do you really expect a thread author to explicitly state what shouldn't be discussed in their thread? I guess I'll begin a rant about politics or maybe tell you about what I ate for lunch today, you didn't say I couldn't post about it...

I believe that's exactly what i'm doing. You only have to follow me on facebook to see how much i do of that.

But yeah you're probably right, i should just ignore TM2 and focus entirely on TMN. but at the same time, expressing my opinions is also important, but maybe i shouldn't do it in a TMO/TMS/TM2 forum where it's me vs 10 other guys.

This is a perfectly acceptable way/area to discuss it imo, as it should have been done in the first place.

Well that's just like your opinion man, as the quote goes. I haven't gotten tired after 5 years. Sure i would definitely welcome new features etc etc, but the core gameplay for me is still very enjoyable. And as you can see, there's still alot more people who play this game over TMU or TM2 5 YEARS after its release. I think that means something. and please don't come with the "it's only popular coz it's free" arguments. a game isn't this popular for so long just because it's free.

That's not an opinion, that's a fact. You may not have gotten tired of it, but after 5 years can you really expect a game to maintain the same level of popularity, especially with a new version released? Is SC1 played competitively with the same popularity now? Are Wow subscriptions declining or rising? Eventually, even the most respected/popular games lose popularity. It's clearly already happening whether you admit it or not.

Actually the MOBA community is the only esports community i don't follow so yeah maybe you're right about that though you don't give any examples. But if you look at communities like Starcraft they have a much better esports approach to it where they listen and respect the esports community, and as a result they have a very healthy environment. Nadeo will probably continue to do their thing, but i see no point for me to follow them down their path. At the end of the day it's about what you love to do and you just follow that path and try to enjoy your life as much as you can and that's what i aim to do.

I think Nadeo is a lot better than you realize, a lot of game companies would not even bother to reply to these criticisms or simply cover them up. You have to realize your idea of what should happen is completely against what they have been developing for years now - it's not like they can say "Oh damn, look at frost's comments, let's give up supporting the new game we've just released. Let's also scrap our entire idea for maniaplanet and develop a game based on his esport ideals." Honestly, what do you expect them to do? The simple fact is, their main source of revenue is obviously from their newly released game - it is completely and utterly illogical to believe they wouldn't support it over TMN. I'd like to see a specific TMN sequel as much as the next person, but there's not even a possiblity of it occuring if Nadeo can't make money off their current releases. So once again I reiterate, you are fighting against your own agenda - if you can't see it now, there's nothing more I can say to make you realize it and I'll take my leave from this thread.

[svens]

Exactly, the finalist-mode is hardly used these days. Basically only in ESWC where Nadeo/Hylis still got alot of influences and can control the rules. As you said, the community developed its own tools how to play and i really like the ESL Cup Mode. Sadly it's not used so much, which i think is because of it being too closely attached to ESL. I tried talking with the developer of it to release it for everyone to use, but he wasnt keen on that idea sadly.

Offtopic: Are you talking about the ESL cup mode introduced here? If yes, I am the developer of it and how you put it here is simply not correct. First of all, I do not remember any conversation about that topic with anbody except JWH, which was only two mails. And I can only repeat what I said to him: I have no problem with it not being connected to the ESL, but it's not entirely up to me to decide that. For starters, you could ask D-Moll what he thinks about it.

[FrostBeule]

No one is trying to censor you (I am completely against that myself), it's just that we expect you to respect others opinions and of the organizers of the tournament. The discussion didn't "form out of anything", you knew exactly what you were doing and forced it to happen. And do you really expect a thread author to explicitly state what shouldn't be discussed in their thread? I guess I'll begin a rant about politics or maybe tell you about what I ate for lunch today, you didn't say I couldn't post about it...

oh i respect your opinion, don't get me wrong. I have big respect for the TMU/TM2 community, and it's also not zotac that i'm blaming here. As i said before, they're just doing what they think is right. TM2 is a new trackmania game and it's being promoted as a sequel to TMN as an esports game. I just think it's a messed up situation and i express why. And no i don't expect a thread author to do that, the same way i don't expect that a discussion about the cup wouldn't fit in the topic.

That's not an opinion, that's a fact. You may not have gotten tired of it, but after 5 years can you really expect a game to maintain the same level of popularity, especially with a new version released? Is SC1 played competitively with the same popularity now? Are Wow subscriptions declining or rising? Eventually, even the most respected/popular games lose popularity. It's clearly already happening whether you admit it or not.

that may be a fact in North America where the game never quite got big sadly. But in europe there's still 10k people playing at any moment during the evenings. And it was up to 20k people just 1 year ago before the very clumsy freezone was introduced. But don't get me wrong, im not saying this game is doing as well player based as before, it is getting old and sadly without further support form the developers that player base probably won't increase. However the esports part of the game IS increasing as we see more teams, more players, more tournaments than ever before playing this game competitively - and that IS a fact.

I think Nadeo is a lot better than you realize, a lot of game companies would not even bother to reply to these criticisms or simply cover them up. You have to realize your idea of what should happen is completely against what they have been developing for years now - it's not like they can say "Oh damn, look at frost's comments, let's give up supporting the new game we've just released. Let's also scrap our entire idea for maniaplanet and develop a game based on his esport ideals." Honestly, what do you expect them to do? The simple fact is, their main source of revenue is obviously from their newly released game - it is completely and utterly illogical to believe they wouldn't support it over TMN. I'd like to see a specific TMN sequel as much as the next person, but there's not even a possiblity of it occuring if Nadeo can't make money off their current releases. So once again I reiterate, you are fighting against your own agenda - if you can't see it now, there's nothing more I can say to make you realize it and I'll take my leave from this thread.

the problem is that Nadeo developed TMN as something different from what they previously had made, which was an esports concept. And what i have against is how they just bunched it together with what they made before and called it the same thing when it wasn't. But im not saying that Nadeo will fix this now or that they will ever do it, im well aware that they are focusing on their maniaplanet concept now, but what im against is simply the lack of seperation of their games and their blindness of what made them successful which was TMN and the concept of it. So yeah the situation is what it is right now and i believe the best thing i can do is to keep supporting TMN as an esport which intend to do. Me supporting TM2 doesn't make any sense since there's no indications right now that Nadeo are interested in continuing the esports concept of TMN.

Offtopic: Are you talking about the ESL cup mode introduced here? If yes, I am the developer of it and how you put it here is simply not correct. First of all, I do not remember any conversation about that topic with anbody except JWH, which was only two mails. And I can only repeat what I said to him: I have no problem with it not being connected to the ESL, but it's not entirely up to me to decide that. For starters, you could ask D-Moll what he thinks about it.

yes that's correct. Ah ok, well i remembered it as me asking you the question (im pretty sure i sent you an email atleast) but i also remember that JWH sent emails to you after discussing it with me.

Can you explain further why it's not up to you to decide it? Btw d-moll is no longer part of ESL (luckily).

[TGYoshi]

You might want to just quit out of here and go back to TMU/NF. Like I also do.
I don't like it. I don't play it (a lot). Oehhh clever me!
When many of your friends also jump back to TMNF the eSports will also focus more on TMNF.

What do you think to achieve with this? You expect them to change Canyon totally because you want it to be else?

[FrostBeule]

You might want to just quit out of here and go back to TMU/NF. Like I also do.
I don't like it. I don't play it (a lot). Oehhh clever me!
When many of your friends also jump back to TMNF the eSports will also focus more on TMNF.

What do you think to achieve with this? You expect them to change Canyon totally because you want it to be else?

no i don't expect them to do anything. what i would like for them to do is to continue supporting TMN, and stop promoting TM2 as a sequel to TMN in esports. but i don't expect it. i think it would be the smart thing to do, but i don't expect it.

[svens]

Can you explain further why it's not up to you to decide it? Btw d-moll is no longer part of ESL (luckily).

I turned an idea into reality, but didn't have the idea in the first place. So I think it would be fair to ask d-moll too.

[FrostBeule]

Can you explain further why it's not up to you to decide it? Btw d-moll is no longer part of ESL (luckily).

I turned an idea into reality, but didn't have the idea in the first place. So I think it would be fair to ask d-moll too.

so basically if i get the permission from d-moll you'd release a non-ESL version of it?

[svens]

so basically if i get the permission from d-moll you'd release a non-ESL version of it?

Yep. A new name would be good too

[TGYoshi]

You might want to just quit out of here and go back to TMU/NF. Like I also do.
I don't like it. I don't play it (a lot). Oehhh clever me!
When many of your friends also jump back to TMNF the eSports will also focus more on TMNF.

What do you think to achieve with this? You expect them to change Canyon totally because you want it to be else?

no i don't expect them to do anything. what i would like for them to do is to continue supporting TMN, and stop promoting TM2 as a sequel to TMN in esports. but i don't expect it. i think it would be the smart thing to do, but i don't expect it.

It all depends on the actual eSports players. If you decide to move to TM2 and the other eSports players do as well, the whole eSport stuff will move to TM2. At least, as far as I know.
If the whole eSports community goes back to TMU/NF the eSports themselves also will.

You have to convince other eSports players to go back to TMNF. At least, I think so.
They probably have their arguments not to do so.

Anyway, I guess it strongly depends on how MP evolves. Especially Valley.
I hate how whole MP gets split between different environments as well, since I doubt most will care about buying Valley.

Can you please elaborate on how Nadeo is involved in the influence on eSports? Since I think it depends on what the players do, not what a company screams. If you and your eSport friends move to TM2, it'll focus more on TM2 of course. If you do not move to TM2, it barely can move to TM2.