Debate on TM² Canyon in eSport

[FrostBeule]

It all depends on the actual eSports players. If you decide to move to TM2 and the other eSports players do as well, the whole eSport stuff will move to TM2. At least, as far as I know.
If the whole eSports community goes back to TMU/NF the eSports themselves also will.

You have to convince other eSports players to go back to TMNF. At least, I think so.
They probably have their arguments not to do so.

Anyway, I guess it strongly depends on how MP evolves. Especially Valley.
I hate how whole MP gets split between different environments as well, since I doubt most will care about buying Valley.

I think we see already now that the esports community is staying with TMNF, but that some people also play TM2 on the side, because right now the concept of TM2 with only 1 environment is more simliar to the esports concept of TMN, and also Canyon is not that bad of an environment, but once Valley comes out i think that will mess things up further. But even if it is similiar right now, there is no question about it that the TMN esports community will remain and remain strong for now as evidence of how much activity there is at the moment in the game.

Can you please elaborate on how Nadeo is involved in the influence on eSports? Since I think it depends on what the players do, not what a company screams. If you and your eSport friends move to TM2, it'll focus more on TM2 of course. If you do not move to TM2, it barely can move to TM2.

Nadeo influences eSports by wrongly promoting TM2 as a sequel to TMN. Since organizers only know of TMN they naturally think that TM2 is the right step because Nadeo is telling them that through their promotion. This causes for example WCG to ONLY include TM2 in their votings or that zotac picks up the game. But i think the problem also lies in that everything is called ”trackmania” for starters, which i think causes confusion right from the get-go. But you're right though, it does depend on the players in the end, or atleast SHOULD. All the big stars and teams and sponsors will remain in TMN (while keep playing TM2 on the side) even if Nadeo continues to just have the game in a status-quo and only abuses it to promote their new games through it. So yes we can keep surviving as long as the game still exists, but to keep having a healthy esports environment long-term you definitely need the support and continued development of the game from the developers, and there also should be a communication between the developers and the players, for example as seen with Blizzard (Starcraft) and Valve (CS and DoTa). And not just brisk decisions from the developers doing what only they think is right to improve the esport without any input whatsoever from the people that actually competes in the game.

[TGYoshi]

It all depends on the actual eSports players. If you decide to move to TM2 and the other eSports players do as well, the whole eSport stuff will move to TM2. At least, as far as I know.
If the whole eSports community goes back to TMU/NF the eSports themselves also will.

You have to convince other eSports players to go back to TMNF. At least, I think so.
They probably have their arguments not to do so.

Anyway, I guess it strongly depends on how MP evolves. Especially Valley.
I hate how whole MP gets split between different environments as well, since I doubt most will care about buying Valley.

I think we see already now that the esports community is staying with TMNF, but that some people also play TM2 on the side, because right now the concept of TM2 with only 1 environment is more simliar to the esports concept of TMN, and also Canyon is not that bad of an environment, but once Valley comes out i think that will mess things up further. But even if it is similiar right now, there is no question about it that the TMN esports community will remain and remain strong for now as evidence of how much activity there is at the moment in the game.

I can't disagree to that.

Can you please elaborate on how Nadeo is involved in the influence on eSports? Since I think it depends on what the players do, not what a company screams. If you and your eSport friends move to TM2, it'll focus more on TM2 of course. If you do not move to TM2, it barely can move to TM2.

Nadeo influences eSports by wrongly promoting TM2 as a sequel to TMN. Since organizers only know of TMN they naturally think that TM2 is the right step because Nadeo is telling them that through their promotion. This causes for example WCG to ONLY include TM2 in their votings or that zotac picks up the game. But i think the problem also lies in that everything is called ”trackmania” for starters, which i think causes confusion right from the get-go. But you're right though, it does depend on the players in the end, or atleast SHOULD. All the big stars and teams and sponsors will remain in TMN (while keep playing TM2 on the side) even if Nadeo continues to just have the game in a status-quo and only abuses it to promote their new games through it. So yes we can keep surviving as long as the game still exists, but to keep having a healthy esports environment long-term you definitely need the support and continued development of the game from the developers, and there also should be a communication between the developers and the players, for example as seen with Blizzard (Starcraft) and Valve (CS and DoTa). And not just brisk decisions from the developers doing what only they think is right to improve the esport without any input whatsoever from the people that actually competes in the game.

Probably me, but I haven't ever seen an official public statement about TM2 being the TMNF eSports sequel. Example please?
Do the organizers actually know about your vision on this? It might be worth a shot to convince them, but I guess you've already tried that. If you've already tried it, why did it fail?
I will never disagree to the fact that the dev-community communication isn't big at all. Currently we have no idea what's going on as well. I thought we'd get some kind of blocks update previous year as well.

However, you should keep in mind what trackmania is aiming for. You only seem to take TMNF in account, while 6 other environments went before (nowadays known as United). Every different environment is another experience, Canyon is another one, even though I dislike Canyons experience over the other environments.
As I've probably said before, it's not required for an environment to be playable as an eSports competition.

[bttrtrpfhr]

i think that the time has arrived that the players who already played tmo/tms (and paid for it!) for years should have a chance to be in esports instead of stadium. if the most tmu players talk about stadium it is always gaydium and this is my point of view too.

as a marketing strategy stadium as a free-to-play envi is great for those who dont know tmu and should get to know it. but the intention is to buy the whole game and not staying at this free envi. so i think nadeo is doing everything right. stop supporting tmn, supporting canyon. they do business with the game and how should they earn money to be able to create more great games without supporting a title that costs some money?

you should always have a look to the economic side. how should hylis and his team be able to be alive if they would do anything for tmn? will you pay him money every month that he has some for his life? i dont think so. so go crying where people have a interesst of your meaning.

after all the years i think nadeo did one big mistake: to make stadium free for all time. they had also the chance to make it free for one year and after that you have to pay for the game. if it would be handeld like this, all stadium players would have paid for it and gets the other envis to know or had stopped playing.

[FrostBeule]

Probably me, but I haven't ever seen an official public statement about TM2 being the TMNF eSports sequel. Example please?
Do the organizers actually know about your vision on this? It might be worth a shot to convince them, but I guess you've already tried that. If you've already tried it, why did it fail?

They have promoted the game at esports events such as Dreamhack and ESL IEM, at IEM it was extra clear as they had showmatches right after the EPS.de grand finals. Also Hylis has said himself that he doesn't even like TMN as an esport. Can't get much clearer than that imo.
And yes Nadeo knows about my opinions as ive talked with Hylis many many times, but we have pretty much never been in the same boat sadly. As to why, i think it's about the fundamentals of seeing what Trackmania is. For Hylis and Nadeo, Trackmania is only what they made before TMN, and that TMN is merely a part of and a continuation of that. But i think they never shouldve agreed on making TMN when ESWC asked them if they wouldve wanted to only keep that idea of Trackmania. I think TMN attracted a different crowd, an esports crowd, and i think Nadeo have failed to realize that difference and just bundled it together with what they made before thinking it's all the same, and that we all WANTED the same.

i think that the time has arrived that the players who already played tmo/tms (and paid for it!) for years should have a chance to be in esports instead of stadium. if the most tmu players talk about stadium it is always gaydium and this is my point of view too.

hey, i paid for TMN - twice! and i would say a majority of the esports players in TMN have a paid account, especially after the freezone was introduced. but you bring up a good point: the fact that most TMU players don't like TMN, and i can understand that as TMN is a different concept from TMU. this is exactly what Nadeo doesn't realize when they continue to say that Trackmania is the same 1 thing.

as a marketing strategy stadium as a free-to-play envi is great for those who dont know tmu and should get to know it. but the intention is to buy the whole game and not staying at this free envi. so i think nadeo is doing everything right. stop supporting tmn, supporting canyon. they do business with the game and how should they earn money to be able to create more great games without supporting a title that costs some money?

you should always have a look to the economic side. how should hylis and his team be able to be alive if they would do anything for tmn? will you pay him money every month that he has some for his life? i dont think so. so go crying where people have a interesst of your meaning.

after all the years i think nadeo did one big mistake: to make stadium free for all time. they had also the chance to make it free for one year and after that you have to pay for the game. if it would be handeld like this, all stadium players would have paid for it and gets the other envis to know or had stopped playing.

the intention for TMN was firstly to make an esports game for ESWC, later did it become an opening to buy TMU aswell. and if you didn't know, TMN got advertising in the game which does give them revenue, and even today as there's still many many people that play TMN, far more than there are people playing TM2. also many people bought TMU through TMN to get extra features but also because they were lead into thinking it was the natural step (feels familiar?) and guess what, most people still only/mainly play stadium.
the truth of the matter is that TMN is Nadeo's biggest success and brought them to where they are today. you call that a mistake?

[Trackmaniack]

I would like to see that: See how many people would still play Stadium if you actually had to pay for it. Personally, I would. So would you, Frost. But not everybody would. I actually got into the TM scene with TM-Sunrise, and then moved to Nations because it was "Current". People move to what's "current", not what -you- may think is the best. As soon as TMN stops being the latest thing, people will move to something else.

[TGYoshi]

Probably me, but I haven't ever seen an official public statement about TM2 being the TMNF eSports sequel. Example please?
Do the organizers actually know about your vision on this? It might be worth a shot to convince them, but I guess you've already tried that. If you've already tried it, why did it fail?

They have promoted the game at esports events such as Dreamhack and ESL IEM, at IEM it was extra clear as they had showmatches right after the EPS.de grand finals. Also Hylis has said himself that he doesn't even like TMN as an esport. Can't get much clearer than that imo.
And yes Nadeo knows about my opinions as ive talked with Hylis many many times, but we have pretty much never been in the same boat sadly. As to why, i think it's about the fundamentals of seeing what Trackmania is. For Hylis and Nadeo, Trackmania is only what they made before TMN, and that TMN is merely a part of and a continuation of that. But i think they never shouldve agreed on making TMN when ESWC asked them if they wouldve wanted to only keep that idea of Trackmania. I think TMN attracted a different crowd, an esports crowd, and i think Nadeo have failed to realize that difference and just bundled it together with what they made before thinking it's all the same, and that we all WANTED the same.

Maybe they see eSports on another way you do. It certainly is a competitive game, but TM always was and will be.
When would you mark an environment (don't say anything about stadium please) as an eSports environment? So when [insert new environment name here] would follow your 'rules', it's an eSports environment (in your opinion).
If you know, what does Nadeo think what an 'eSports environment' actually is? (You probably don't know, but maybe you know Hylis' vision on this.)

I would like to see that: See how many people would still play Stadium if you actually had to pay for it. Personally, I would. So would you, Frost. But not everybody would. I actually got into the TM scene with TM-Sunrise, and then moved to Nations because it was "Current". People move to what's "current", not what -you- may think is the best. As soon as TMN stops being the latest thing, people will move to something else.

Keep in mind how TMU contains both TMS and TMO envi's. TM2 is only a single environment yet so many people go back to see the other ones again, which are imo more fun.

[Fuje_Imbriago]

@FrostBeule: Go complain to your mother!
____________________________Your mother ^ .. ^ you
Luckly no one at Nadeo will care about your personal desire And stop open these useless topics!

[tcq]

the intention for TMN was firstly to make an esports game for ESWC, later did it become an opening to buy TMU aswell. and if you didn't know, TMN got advertising in the game which does give them revenue, and even today as there's still many many people that play TMN, far more than there are people playing TM2. also many people bought TMU through TMN to get extra features but also because they were lead into thinking it was the natural step (feels familiar?) and guess what, most people still only/mainly play stadium.
the truth of the matter is that TMN is Nadeo's biggest success and brought them to where they are today. you call that a mistake?

And you still know that this revenue through advertising fall apart and they introduced freezone. And even with freezone only a small population of TMN players bought the game? And as you can see on my previous posts, i already explained why TMN is most played, even after buying TMU.
And sure, TMN is nadeo's biggest success (because it is free) and of course it brought them where they are today. But effectively, you can't buy you anything of past glory and need to move on (the more if this past glory gives you nothing than grieve and empty wallets).
If you come up with a solution which makes the TMN players to pay (and with that i mean all which didn't pay it and endure the freezone system), i'm sure Hylis would gladly listen to you and your esport concept for TMN. I would love to see something like make TMN a demo which shuts down after 1 week and then forces them to pay. Because you can't tell me any big esport game which is still free (of advertising and without a big publisher).

[zarexz]

Frost dude,
First of all, for a world champion you are quite a poor ambasador for the game. Or maybe you represent exactly how the loudmouth, rude, always knowing better TMN community is. You are just affraid you have to get good in a new game without your knowledge of all the stadium trickery/buggery/crappery. You are fighting a lost cause here. This has been going on for 4 pages in this thread and god knows how many other threads but no one seems to agree with you here. Please leave us alone and let those who do love TM2 have their own go at an esports event.

Now move on outha here with all the speed you posses and go win another big gaydium event^^

[iceman23]

Frost, let's try to look at this from a purely objective point of view. What, fundamentally, makes canyon less suited for esport? As a singular entity, I cannot think of a reason other than it seems to be more beneficial to play with a pad or some sort of analog controller rather than the keyboard, rendering in inherently less accessible than the stadium environment. Now, I will concede that with the addition of new environments, a distinction should be made as to which environment will be supported by Nadeo in tournaments. The necessity to adapt to multiple physics engines is certainly a detriment to accessibility and tournament organization. However, we don't know how Nadeo will handle this, or if even matters to their business model to do so, as such it really cannot be used as a point of contention yet. This problem, believe it or not, is one exacerbated by TMN ESWC players themselves. I think the success of this game went far beyond Nadeo's original intentions, and the esport "ideal" it is portrayed as being created as is far overstated (originally it was a promotional tool)- it was brought about by the players themselves. This is the fundamental flaw in your argument. In the end, its the players, not Nadeo, who create the backbone and formation of an esport entity. No matter how much money Nadeo throws at a game, if the players don't support it, it simply cannot happen. Nadeo's philosophy has been based on creation, community participation and fun from the very beginning - the players turned what was fundamentally a promotional concept into a esport.

By buying TMU, playing, and competing in tournaments in TMNF, these players supported Nadeo's multiple environment model (regardless if it was designed for esports or not, or if they intended to play other environments) and eventually all the competition moved there. Here, you're doing exactly the same thing by buying TM2 and participating in TM2 events. The very presence of your name, and your sponsor in a TM2 tournament is a vote for your support. You supported TM2 simply by purchasing it - that money is now being used to further that model and monetize tournaments. It's like the person who claims to hate Walmart for its big business model, but then turns around and purchases a product there. As much as you claim to stand up for your ideals, your actions speak very differently. So which is it - will you continue the hypocrisy or leave TM2?