Debate on TM² Canyon in eSport

[voltor]

Cling cling on to that old game god i hope nadeo do let it die soon.

[Trackmaniack]

You're NOT helping, man. That comment was childish and immature. Nations is a freaking AWESOME game, and one of the best racing games for eSport, if not -the- best current game for eSport out there. Okay? TM2 is the NEWEST Trackmania game out there...doesn't make it the best. It's got some problems, while TMN's only problem is old graphics. Rethink your opinions next time before you post, and you'll get along a lot better here.

[fng_thatoneguy]

I know I'm late to the party, but I would like to add my thoughts, because I think the entire argument is rather silly.

Let me state the obvious first:
Nadeo created a game called TrackMania. TrackMania as a whole is made up of eight environments. The concepts of TrackMania are the same across all environments:
1. Each environment has a car with physics unique from the others.
2. Each environment has a set of blocks with which to create tracks which have underlying characteristics that make them somewhat unique to the others, but conceptually still the same (flat, banked, wallride, loop, turbos, etc.) with a few exceptions (ex: engine killer blocks in Nations Forever)
3. The game engine rules of how a player finishes are the same across all environments, meaning the racer may take any path he/she deems fit ... as long as they make it through each checkpoint and through the finish, it's counted as a complete lap. (this allows the awesome flexibility for authors to create multipath maps.)

Let me state another point before I get to my thoughts:
Many tend to very loosely abuse the words "most" and "all" (myself included) -- even though it may/may not be accurate. It's easier than trying to go research statistics, blah blah blah, but we need to be careful when having a discussion like this. I will try to be careful about how I use it below...

My thoughts (and I hope I can articulate and organize them well; my apologies if not.)
I believe the TrackMania community (even somewhat proven in this thread) is as diverse as the number of players that have participated in any part of it. As a whole it feels like one of the best of all games out there because of the servers I've played on over my time, most of the players I have interacted with have shared a camaraderie and respect for each other. There have been a few exceptions. Now, in that context, realize that I have probably only played on an extremely small subset of the servers that have existed; so I'm in no-wise an authority on what "most" or "all" players think or feel. I believe all of us are in the same boat there.

That said, I will never understand anyone making an argument that only ONE environment from TrackMania should be in eSports. TrackMania is eSports, not any one particular environment. For as many as say Nations/Stadium should be it, there are probably as many that say it should be Island or Canyon or Bay or Rally, etc. My own humble opinion is that the best TrackMania players are those that not only can shine in ALL environments, but in ALL styles of tracks too, not just tech. I know I will be flamed for making such comments, but again, I don't believe there is a true "most" or "all" to be had here. I do believe that a large group have come together as one to create an eSports scene for Stadium because Nadeo released that originally standalone environment for the ESWC... so it was more than appropriate.

However, I have run two professional tournaments of my own, being a complete newb to the eSports scene, but having loved playing TrackMania for years and having our own private tournaments with our team, it was nice to have a venue (GEEX) to try to spread the word about TrackMania to the rest of the world; especially the USA where FrostBeule correctly pointed out that it has never been as big here. I believe the reason for that has been the lack of marketing. A lot of people I know that have discovered TrackMania in the USA found out about it online through other means, or happened to see it while in a game store looking for something else.

Back to my tournaments... I ran two successful tournaments which had corporate sponsors backing them, the most recent being sponsored by Ubisoft themselves who also brought Intel along for the ride. We were able to provide awesome prizes, including gaming laptops, a top-end video card, large widescreen monitor and some awesome CPUs. From what I understand, I ran my tournaments completely different than many in the discussed eSports scene... my first tournament was TMUF and included maps from every environment, and as many different styles as I could find, including a top-down R/C-style map, and one that was built for multi-path called "Kingdom of Tricks." The second tournament was the first official USA TrackMania 2 Canyon tournament.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that my rules would probably make the paid pros upset... I allow spectating and shortcuts. As mentioned before, the game was designed to count a complete lap if the player gets through all the checkpoints and the finish gate. I like that model... I think it has expanded the kinds of tracks that are available since it allows for multipath tracks anyway.
Because shortcuts are allowed, spectating must follow... which is fine, because if someone is unaware of a cut, they can find out about it by watching; they still have to be able to execute it, and have wasted some of their time spectating, leaving them less to actually pull it off.

This works out fine because we don't go find tracks that have secretive cuts in them... we try to get well-tested quality tracks, but if someone in their training has found a better way to accomplish the goal, more power to them -- and in my experience in the community, including in real tournaments like the Verizon PlayLinc tournament the night before TMU's release, people were showing each other cuts they found in those tracks.

Nevertheless, I digress ... but I brought it up because I want to emphasize the point that there are very different ideas about how TrackMania can be an eSport.

Both events were successful, I am under the impression that everyone had a good time and many paid great compliments to me on how much they enjoyed it (including those that didn't win anything.)

The last tournament I had was my greatest feat yet, and completely impossible to pull off on my own. I had the incredible backing of an employee at Ubisoft and nine popular track authors from around the world. And despite some technical difficulties like not having the in-game ads like TMF to announce our event, we were still able to get players registered and playing from across the USA, and even one from Canada. And despite not being able to fund finalists to get to our event, we still had two fly in from opposite ends of the country, one of them taking home the grand prize.

So to say that these kinds of things aren't valid for eSports is incorrect. Yes, these events are going through growing pains; again, we're new at it. But I believe, and I believe there are a lot of others that feel the same (they just haven't been organized into an eSports group or anything), that all of TrackMania is legit for eSports... without the need of whining or fighting with each other. If one group wants to make a Coast-only competition, so be it. If one wants to do Stadium-only with only tech tracks, so be it. If one wants to do Stadium with crazy wallride-based tracks only, more power to them. It just doesn't matter. The game is versatile enough that it can be used in any configuration for any eSports competition. As long as the players know what the specifics are for that particular competition, they're good; and can make their decision on if it's for them or not.

But the point is, TrackMania is eSports, not any one environment and not any one particular style of tracks. I still believe the true best TrackMania players are those that can shine no matter the environment, no matter the style of track.

===============

Now, all that out, I understand that those that make the game more a career will have a segmented eSports scene that may focus on one environment and one style of track. As mentioned before, that's perfectly fine and valid... but it's not right to say that this can be the only way TrackMania can be in eSports.

FrostBeule, I hope you get to continue enjoying the way you enjoy TMN in the eSports scene. I hope everyone else gets to enjoy it in whatever other aspect TM gets used... I think we should all encourage all uses of TrackMania in eSports.

Ok, I'm finished now... flame away. (Though I wouldn't mind seeing some of the folks that have participated in my tournaments coming back here and posting their thoughts on the eSports TM tournaments of a different flavor they participated in.)

GG

EDIT: If you got through this entire epic novel; you're freaking awesome... but you should be playing the game, not spending all your time reading about it.

[eyebo]

I read it all. Well said! You make some good points.

[tcq]

Great post.

[Demented]

Nice.
That was a lot to say but well said.
I think a major goal of Nadeo was and is to Unite people. Thus, variety and stripping away limits is what it's all about. I've played most driving games and the TM series is the only one I always go back to. (And for nearly ten years now!) Can't wait to see what's next.

[haenry]

indeed, really good points you made.
Agree

[MacDuffman]

Jumping in here on the heels of TOG's post is kind of intimidating... lol

The way I look at competitive TM2 is this. YES, I do concede that Canyon is a more casual-accessable game than (especially) Nations. However, when you think about it does that defeat its competitive nature? I mean, yes, fast drifting adds more complexity to the mix, but it's does not deter the skill ceiling. In fact, I'd argue that the skill cap is raised due to the precision needed to complete a "fast as possible" drift turn.

In addition, the idea that has been a hot button issue in this thread, TM2's multi-environment nature, opens up the possibility for competitions to be more unique and challenging. The community can and eventually will come to a concensus to which competitive format would work best (A single-environment or the "triathlon" method) for larger tournaments and competitions.

Team Fortress 2's competitive scene was surrounded by a very closed group of players, who had played 6v6 for years. This changed when highlander (9v9) was incorporated into the main competitive scene. Yes, it's comparing an apple to an orange, but they're both still fruit. This logic can be applied to TM2's competitive future as well; smaller cups and competitions can cater to one or more than one evironment to bring in new players to the competitive scene. The largest competitions can keep a strict set of rules revolving around what seems to be the most balanced environment released, or the MOST ESTABLISHED. Meaning, if accepted in WGC, ESL, etc. for years to come, Canyon could take precedence, or another set of physics may take its place in the future. (Can you say Stadium 2?)

I really think it's paramount that the community at large think long and hard together, with league/cup organizers, and figure out whether to back a multi-evironment tournament model in the future OR have seperate leagues for each environment BEFORE we try and move onto the next environment's release.

[laurens92]

you're doing great macduffman, my Hamburger mate! =)

[serujio]

It seems that we have 2 sides here. One of some of the esports guys, and other of the developers of the game.

I'm new on Trackmania, played TMNF a couple of months, and now I'm playing Canyon.

It seems that what Frostbeule says make sense from the esports player point of view. We have a game designed for esports, TMNF, and on the other side we have Canyon, which makes part of the new concept of Maniaplanet.

I read some posts from Hylis, and it seems that he have nice plans for this franchise. It's a very interesting direction Trackmania is taking, getting bigger with Maniaplanet. Could not be the best direction for esports, but it seems a good one for multiplayer gamming and for the company, Nadeo and Ubisoft.

I think that in a perfect world, Nadeo should support the esports guys the way they want, making the changes that they suggest and putting the game on the major events like WCG and Zotac Cup. But in this world, we have to survive right? We have to pay our bills. It's hard work.
So, I think if Nadeo have their new project, Maniaplanet, I can understand why TM2 is taking the place on the tournaments that TMNF did before. They have to work on the new game they developed, and esports is a good way of promoting this new game. And they don't want new gamers to play the old 2006/2008 game, they obviously want them to play the newest.

Now, if the players know the direction Nadeo is taking, it seems it doesn't make sense that they keep complaining about having TMNF. It is better that most esports players come to Canyon and start helping to promote this game and boosting it on esports as well. I think that it is an awesome game, beautiful graphics and very good gameplay. Despite of not beeing so perfect for esports, for some players, Canyon is already proving to be very fun to play in competitions. Many tournaments had already being done on Canyon and I think they were very succesfull for what I saw.

Imagine if many TMNF players quit for Canyon. We could have a much bigger community and more e-sports events(which are already doing good).

So, maybe TMNF e-sports players should give the future a try, 2 tries, 3 tries, and stay with it.

Do more for Nadeo, instead of wanting them to give you everything.

ps.: sorry for english errors.